User:GHawkins/MayDPRank2

Start of discussion

Unfortunately the chat took off I did not begin to /copy soon enough so I do not have part of the initial conversation. A summary as I remember follows:

Ouijdani introduces himself and asks players to look at his info for his position statement as DP. [A copy of which is at the bottom of this page for reference]
GHawkins introduces himself and requests introductions from other players, along with whether or not they are serious candidates.
Dedenav shows interest.
Dawner expresses support for HD and says she might be interested but feels too inexperienced.
GHawkins asks whether participants consider the DP election to be just a test pass or if they have something specific to offer.

Copied discussion

2 days 10 hours left in this Demi-Pharaoh round.

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Ouijdani: If you look at my history in the game, I do not tend to pass many tests -- the pass in this case is not my main objective.

Ouijdani: I like to work on the community projects and to help mew players get adjusted to the game.

Ouijdani: I also would like to see more interaction among the French, German and English speaking players, though I understand the obvious language difficulty. But sometimes it seems to me that the English speakers drive the other players out of the main parts of the game.

Ouijdani: The Francophone community has done a very good job supporting their members, however.

Ouijdani: I don't know much about the German speakers.

Ouijdani: I think the role of DP would give me more opportunities to participate across a broader scope of the player community.

Ouijdani: *mew=new

2 days 1 hour left in this Demi-Pharaoh round.

GHawkins: It's an interesting situation Ouijdani, as a monolingual person myself, what can I do to foster (or at least not drive away) others who do not have English as their primary language?

Ouijdani: Sometimes people make fun of or object to non-English in the regional channels

Ouijdani: it's more a lack of a negative than any positive we can do

Ouijdani: and of course one can come down on the offenders

GHawkins: As DP, if you were to call someone out on a public channel for doing that, you'd probably be taken seriously since you implicitly have the power to ban. Would actually using a ban be justified on someone who has disparaged foreign language players, and what line would have to be crossed before you did so?

dedenav: salut :)

dedenav: to be DP or not DP, that is the question :)

dedenav: lol

Ouijdani: I don't think a ban is useful in that case. It only bans the avatar, not the player -- they can just make a new one

2 days left in this Demi-Pharaoh round.

Ouijdani: The only time I think a ban is useful at all is if an established "wealthy" player behaves extremely badly in an attempt to hurt another player -- and even then it is questionable and not to be used lightly.

Ouijdani: The ban was first used in T3, and I have talked to almost every DP who used the ban. In all cases I talked to I thought the procedure they followed was reasonable and that the ban was appropriate.

Ouijdani: Remember, it does not ban the player or the account -- just the avatar. So banning an obnoxious newbie is worse than useless -- it only feeds their ego and they get to make another avatar immediately.

Ouijdani: First ban may have been right at the end of T2, not that I think about it.

Ouijdani: *not=now

Hounddog: who u talking to??

GHawkins: I'm listening.

Ouijdani: That was a response to the question from 45 min ago

Ouijdani: And now I am off for a bit -- g'day

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Dawner: I've never heard anyone make fun of non-English players in regional channels but if that happens, it's immature and perhaps more helpful to the player to offer them foreign channel links

Dawner: Something that does bother me is your saying that banning an obnoxious newbie is worse than useless... as I say I dont have as much experience here than other people, but this is the 6th tale, and those are the rules. I think the anyone running for DP should first agree with the rules

Hounddog: Dawner you know another thing that suxs is ppl running for DP get voted in the stop playing, and for that should be ban from running for DP in future tales..

GHawkins: I certainly won't be voting for Ariella or Pascallito in a future tale for that reason, but this is my first telling so I wouldn't be able to recognize any absentee DPs.

Ouijdani: To Dawner's observation, perhaps I should clarify. If a new player is being obnoxious in chat, and I choose to ban them I have accomplished nothing. They simply make a new character.

Ouijdani: Are Ariella's and Pascalito's accounts closed?

Ouijdani: yup

Ouijdani: I take it one or the other was a DP?

GHawkins: And they both left shortly after Pascalito was elected.

GHawkins: BOTH are DPs.

Ouijdani: Well, I can understand taking a break, but not closing an account, if one is a DP.

Ouijdani: There is a responsibility to the community

Dawner: I guess I should clarify, Ouijdani .. the law is the law, and DPs are to uphold it rather than deciding "it would be useless."

Ouijdani: I'm not sure what you mean by the law?

Dawner: "law" "rules of conduct"

Ouijdani: The use of the ban is entirely at the disposal of the DP

Ouijdani: If a player breaks the rules of conduct, that is a GM/Dev issue

Dawner: yes i do understand :)

Ouijdani: They player and the account can be banned in that case

Ouijdani: oh, I see Ouijdani: I was thinking TOC

Dawner: if a player is obnoxious, that is a conduct issue i believe

Dawner: which is a DP issue

Ouijdani: yes

Dawner: and if the DP thinks that it would be worse than useless to ban someone for bad conduct ...

Ouijdani: but then we have to decide what "obnoxious" means :)

Ouijdani: usually, all the DP's get together and decide in such cases, with input from other players

Ouijdani: So a griefer could recreate a new character each time they are banned, using up all the DP bans

Ouijdani: as there are only 7 bans per DP

Ouijdani: we had such an issue in T4

Dawner: i do understand that.

Ouijdani: where a player kept coming back and being even more obnoxious

Hounddog: geodude

Ouijdani: such as building apiaries all over a person's camp :)

Ouijdani: yup

Dawner: i just disagree that "banning an obnoxious new player" is useless. i am not sure how much more clear i can be

Ouijdani: maybe I should have said "can be"

Ouijdani: it depends on the situation

Ouijdani: I was thinking of the geodude event in particular when I made that comment

Hounddog: before any bans are made it should be talk about in a meeting with other DP's and if you can't come to an agreement with the person maybe a senior DP can....everyone talk to other differently..

Ouijdani: Right

Hounddog: the only problem i have in the game is ppl bon fireing clay spots and never building...

Ouijdani: I can think of one or two situations where a quick ban was needed, but almost always should be a conference and agreement

Ouijdani: Who was the guy blowing up CS's in T4 or T5?

Hounddog: i don't know the name but did hear about it, i think it's in the ban logs..

Ouijdani: I remember it well because it took us days to fix the CS's he got to :)

1 day 21 hours left in this Demi-Pharaoh round.

Hounddog: mistakes happen, but to do it and sit there and laugh, is where acct needs to be ban...cause late in a game it's not easy to fix cs's cause most ppl used there's to help build them..

Ouijdani: yes, he was doing it intentionally

Hounddog: teppy should be ban for taking away my oyster catching, i very much miss swimming..

Ouijdani: me too!

Dawner: being a noob, i've never swam on the game.

GHawkins: This has been an unusually active conversation, so I've been keeping a /copy for my reference. Would anyone object to this being posted on the wiki where everyone can access it?

Hounddog: nope

Dawner: that's fine with me.

Ouijdani: go fo it :)

Ouijdani: for*

GHawkins: Hounddog, you mentioned irritation with claypit bonfiring. Do you have a preferred solution? There are a few laws floating around that would make bonfires salvagable, people who claim clay pits could be named and shamed, or a DP could intervene. That's what comes to my mind right away as possiblities, what is your (and everyone else is free to respond) preferred solution?

Dawner: I do have a question ...

Dawner: why put this in the wiki when it's not the final debate?

GHawkins: I'm keeping a copy so that I can review everything that has been said.

GHawkins: Putting it on the wiki lets others do the same. The link to this page will not be on the main DP page.

GHawkins: I think of it mainly as a reference for others in this chat.

Dawner: Interesting .. it's just a conversation ..

GHawkins: But a conversation that sways my vote, and Dedenav might be interested in catching up.

Hounddog: a dp has nothing to do wiht what a player does like bon fireing clay spots, thats something teppy needs to put into coding, but in my mind a GM should and i know if given the power by teppy to remove them, not that they have enought to do being short on GM's ..ty teppy.

GHawkins: From my understanding, the code about bonfires won't be changed unless the players pass a law. One law which has been proposed and has made it onto two ballots (and eventaully, maybe, a third if we ever get another ballot) is The Departed Law. Among other changes, bonfires with less than 100 wood become salvagable by anyone after 60 days. Is that an adequate solution or does this law go too far or not far enough?

GHawkins: http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale6/Laws/The_Departed_Law

Dawner: I favor laws that are more simple. One law for brick racks. One law for bonfires. That way there is no chance of a law failing for the wrong reason.

Dawner: I wrote a law about hegemonic tables. They are clutter after a certain point.

Dawner: (like a couple DAYS)

GHawkins: I'm pretty sure I got all of mine torn down.

[Once again chat scrolled by before I copied it, but I don't recall much discussion going on here]

1 day 1 hour left in this Demi-Pharaoh round.

Ouijdani: g'day, dede

Dawner: hi dedenev :)

Dawner: We were asked how far we had progressed in the Discipline of Leadership in a previous Round 2 of Demi Pharaoh. It's one of the reasons I decided that I don't have the experience to be DP.

Dawner: That is, if you are still interested in discussing this .. if not, I sure understand.

1 day left in this Demi-Pharaoh round.

dedenav: this discution are to hard for my english

dedenav: tomorow i'll vote for one of you

dedenav: there is not mutch french player in the game for a french DP now

Dawner: i apologize.

dedenav: :)

Hounddog voted for himself as Demi-Pharaoh.

dedenav: hounddog, i was sure you are allready a DP !

Hounddog: nope, my wife is, i'm still trying ...

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GHawkins: Voting time. Altogether I feel Ouijdani did a more thorough job in answering the questions I put forward, though I'd be comfortable with anyone here as DP. As such, I'll leave the decision to dedenav and Ouijdani. Either of you can vote for Hounddog to secure his majority, or you can both support Ouijdani to get the majority for him. I might not be back before the end of the round, so good luck to whoever advances.

GHawkins voted for Ouijdani as Demi-Pharaoh.

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Hounddog: my thought to you voting for Ouijdani who is a part time player, at least i'm here everyday, cept for when sleeping or at DR's, we need a DP thats going to be here at all times not start to play stop start stop...

Dawner: i am glad you said that ..

Hounddog: i hate doing morning chours....

Dawner: lol yes me too :)

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Ouijdani: I would not call myself a part time player, though I tend to take a long break in the middle of each tale

Ouijdani: which is why I did not campaign for DP until I came back

Hounddog: part time player...i'm here ever day i do not take breaks...and a DP that takes breaks is not needed...

Ouijdani: I repeat, I did not campaign for DP until I returned from my break. I will be here every day until the end of the tale.

Hounddog: ok i'v heard that before..

5 hours left in this Demi-Pharaoh round.

dedenav: it's hard , you are 2 good player, but i vote hounddog now, and i hope help ouijdani at the next round !

dedenav voted for Hounddog as Demi-Pharaoh.

Hounddog: i thank you very much dede for your vote, it really does mean alot to me..:))

4 hours left in this Demi-Pharaoh round.

GHawkins: Best of luck to you Hounddog. :)

Hounddog: gh u have never supported me and so keep your comments to yourself, i'll win this election with my friends....

GHawkins: Though I understand your frustration, friendship is not the issue for me. From my personal perspective, DP is a social position that is best filled by someone who will talk through issues. That's why I've been asking questions here and trying to solicit answers. Ouijdani was open and responsive and that's why I supported him. You're a fine person and you've done great things for the community, but that's not what drove my vote here.

Dawner: I think GH you should excuse yourself from moderating the debate. It's pretty clear how you feel...

Hounddog: let me ask you this whens the last time you talked to Ouijdani sinces he came back from his so called break...

GHawkins: This discussion has been my only contact with Ouijdani.

GHawkins: And Dawner, though I feel I am impartial, you are welcome to host the debate.

Hounddog: GH i'v been in these with you many times and u know me and where i stand but u still vote for a person who takes breaks stops playing and u have support other that have stoped or becoume part time players..

GHawkins: I don't have a great idea of who has stopped playing or become part time members. I don't follow the community well enough and generally make a decision based on what is said during the discussions.

GHawkins: In this particular case, you alluded to Ouijdani as a part time player, but didn't outright say anything or give him a chance to respond until after I had voted. By the time I had logged back in, dedenav had voted and the decision was irrelevant.

GHawkins: my decision*

Dawner: You are a fine person and have done great things for the community. You joined the conversation after it had begun -- and you are not one to "repeat what has already been said" but that does not mean you have no worthwhile opinion.

Hounddog: GH go back and play with your college buddies...

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Ouijdani: wow, that seems a bit unpleasant

Ouijdani: just for the record, even though I dislike Hounddog's assessment of my playstyle, I hold no grudge

Hounddog: like i said..we don't need part time DP players we got enough of them and quiters also...

1 hour left in this Demi-Pharaoh round.

Ouijdani's info