Orrin Thistle Talk

Orrin: right, does everyone have a copy of it now?

Tammie: i do

Orrin: right

Orrin: There are no night-time voids right now

Orrin: so let's have a basic runthrough

Orrin: when you open it, there should be a grey table, two yellow ones, and a green column

Orrin: The grey table is where you put in the clicks for dung/Sp/Water/Oxy, and the sun Level

Orrin: let's start off basic, and add 3 water and oxy

Orrin: On the Tick0 row, add them in under their respective columns

Orrin: you should see the yellow boxes change

Orrin: they are telling you what is there at each tick

Orrin: the left yellow box tells you the Dung/Sp/Water/Oxy/Sun levels at that tick, and the right one tells you the nutrient levels

Orrin: if you look at the small box with the red header, right at the bottom, that's the output

Orrin: B+F+ atm, that's 'standard' outpu

Orrin: now the green column

Orrin: This is a binary system, if you put in '1' it means the reaction happens. Put in 0, the reaction doesn't

Orrin: so, to demonstrate, find the '1' beside the '10 Nia -> 30 fol' entry, and change that to a 0

Orrin: that means now that the conversion of 10 Nia to 30 Fol is 'Voided'

Orrin: You can see now on both the yellow, right hand sheet, that fol is now 39, as opposed to 99, and Thi is now 99

Orrin: The small red-topped box has also changed to reflect that

Orrin: B+F~T+

Orrin: So that's the basics of the Thistle Sim

Orrin: Any questions before I move on to working out recipes?

Wampak: will the working out recipies also cover finding out what the voids are?

blondie: can we get a log of this chat?

Orrin: Log: no, blame teppy and the guy that stole P! off of me xD

Orrin: Wampak: that will be all the way at the end

Wampak: k

Dagny: i'll try to keep copying the chat and put up on wiki later

Orrin: ok

Tammie: will you make yourself available for questions at another time for those of us that can't stay for the entire session? i have to leave in 10 minutes so i'm gonna miss out on the rest of it

Orrin: for you dear, I'm always available

Tammie: yay ty

Hanid: I will try to copy it and put it up somewhere

Orrin: Yeh, feel free to drop me a chat, just be aware it might be Ary logged in as me, I try and answer new chats as they come

ShuoftheFieryHeat: im sorry I missed the chat - but that last zip download crashed my system

Orrin: And for those of you with problems like Shu, get yourself a mac....

ShuoftheFieryHeat: I got a working copy of the excel from firegolem - I would guess its not a windows problem but the download is not being encoded as binary - more of a wiki problem

Orrin: no, it's a problem with your computer

Orrin: and unless the wiki has quantum mechanics, it know nthing other than binary ;)

Hanid: Orrin, did you already talk about finding voids before I stumbled in to Fun

ShuoftheFieryHeat: anyway mute point - got the SS now thanks

ShuoftheFieryHeat: nope - I download junk all the time but from the T4 wiki - sometimes it doesnt work - I get stuff from all over just fine thank you

Orrin: nope Hanid

Orrin: (sec, gotta land on the wall again)

Hanid: Oh goo

Aryballa: if its me logged in as Orrin I typically don't read the chats in case they are private...but the real orrin will answer when he logs on

Orrin: so your chats to me are safe Tammie ;D

Orrin: Alright

Orrin: This next bit is the harder bit

Orrin: Change that '0' back to a '1'

Orrin: I'm going to attempt making F~N+P+T-, note attempt ;)

Hanid: I would rather you made A+F-N+P-T+ roflmao

Orrin: Ok, I'll try it ;)

Orrin: Ah no I wont, Asc is a sun thing

Orrin: Dont have sun voids yet

Hanid: just kidding anyway

Spooner: my brain has a void

Orrin: ok, so if we look at the top of the right side yellow column...

Orrin: the one that deals with the nutrients

Orrin: It looks like there's a conversion to bio, car and nia

Orrin: However, lesson #1

Orrin: Void the Nit->Asc reaction (that green column remember?)

Orrin: Notice that the Nia goes? That's because the Nit is being converted to Asc, then through reactions to Nia.

Orrin: This is very very important. Reactions happen in the order that they are in on the sheet.

Orrin: So first off, Nit is converted to Asc

Orrin: Then, that Asc is converted to Nia *In the Same Tick*

Orrin: I wanna make sure everyone follows that

Orrin: any questions?

Orrin: none?

Hanid: I am waiting to hear about loops, but that is later I think

Orrin: that's later yup

blondie: well, nit is (dung), but asc and nia are nutrients?

Dagny: for those just joining in, i'm keeping a log here:

Dagny: http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale4/Orrin_Thistle_Talk

Orrin: Yes Blondie

Hanid: Thanks Dagny

Orrin: nothing much happens until tick 6, then it gets interesting

Orrin: At tick 6, the water level is low enough for the Nia from the Nit->Asc->Nia conversion to get turned into Fol.

Orrin: Then at tick 7, it happens again, but because there's not 10 Nia to convert, it just converts what it has at 1:3 ratio

blondie: are we still making the daily voids on nit to asc 0 or 1?

Orrin: so the 3 Nia left becomes 9 Fol

Orrin: All at 1

Hanid: OK

Orrin: But that's the end of Fol. Fol will now do nothing unless we add light, or Oxy

Orrin: at tick 7, you also notice that the Car has turned to Thi

Orrin: now, because Thi is at the end of the list of conversions, it doesn't get immediately 'reacted'. It has to wait for the next tick

Orrin: here we come to the basis of all good recipes. Feedback Reactions

Orrin: Here, Car has turned to Thi at a ration of 1:2

Orrin: Here, Car has turned to Thi at a ration of 1:2

Orrin: But you see that Thi can also turn to Car at a ration of 1:2

Orrin: so for every 1 Car, 2 Thi is created, which then turns into 4 Car, which then turns into 8 Thi etc etc

Hanid: this is the part I have trouble with

Orrin: Ok, let's go over this in a little more detail

Orrin: Each reaction has a condition which must be met before it happens

Orrin: you can see them, and the ratios, next to the green Void column

Orrin: For Car to be turned to Thi, there must be less than 49 Oxygen

Orrin: For Thi to become Car, there must be less than 39 water. These two do not exclude each other, so both can happen together

Hanid: sometimes it is a one way street

Orrin: Correct. Let's look at Asc.

Orrin: Fol->Asc happens when sun >69

Orrin: But there's no direct conversion for Asc to turn back to Fol. In fact, all that will happen as you create Asc this way is that it will turn to Bio if your water is less than 29

Hanid: *sigh*

Orrin: so if you want to keep your Asc, keep water >29 ;)

Sashagirl: ok now how do you get the PY in with the TH

Orrin: We look for a reaction that uses Thi, Car or Fol. There are no Fol ones, so we look for Car or Thi

Orrin: Bio is useless, once it is there you can't get rid of it

Sashagirl: Mine is asking for A+B+P~T~

Orrin: Wait for the right voidset

Orrin: ok

Sashagirl: oh ok or hope someone has 1 thistle of it to rest it

Hanid: I guess that is the real answer, don't fight the Void Gods

blondie: how do we know what the current voids are?

Orrin: Later blondie! Usually just /info Ephemere

Hanid: LOL

Hanid: ephemere

Hanid: rocks

Orrin: Right....

Orrin: Pyr is relatively easy to create

Orrin: We can convert 10 fol to 20 pyr

Orrin: THe trick is going to be creating Nia

Orrin: Or more accurately, keeping the Nia we make there.

Orrin: With water lower than 59, it gets converted away to Fol

Orrin: Lower than 49, it goes to Thi

Orrin: So we need to ensure water is always greater than 59

Orrin: So, we pick a tick where the buildup has stopped happening, say Tick 17

Orrin: and Add in 5 clicks of water. That should make sure it stays right?

Sashagirl: Yes

Orrin: Try it and see

Orrin: You see that only 20 gets created, and then it stops. That's because adding that 5 killed the feedback that was keeping Thi there

Hanid: orrin, with no voids and lots of C occurring, why won't it convert to T when O is below 49?

Orrin: It is converting!

Orrin: Take out the reaction, see what happens

Orrin: But nearer the end, it falls victim to Asc. Remember what I said about the order of reactions?

Hanid: I see

Orrin: What's happening is the Car is getting converted to Asc

Orrin: Then the Thi is getting converted to 20 Car, which then leads 10 Car to be converted to 20 Thi, leaving 10 Car each time

Orrin: The car is getting used and replaced, it's not just 'there'

Hanid: But I don't know how to force more coversion, so block Asc?

Orrin: Yup, we'd block Asc

Hanid: but you can't block it because they are the same <49

Orrin: You got it :)

Orrin: You can take a look without it though, void the car->asc and see

Orrin: but, because of the way it happens, if you block Asc for one 'round' the reserve builds up, so the next cycle it stabilises at 30, then wait for Thi->Car to restart, do it again, stabilise at 50...

Hanid: mostly it jumped F

Orrin: This is why Thistle recipes are not just 'throw it in and it'll work'

Orrin: This is why Thistle recipes are not just 'throw it in and it'll work'

Orrin: The whole argument over why people charge for recipes, I think you're seeing why now, it's not simple

Orrin: The best way to learn is just to play around with it. Going to leave the tutorial on recipe creation there for now.

Orrin: Now to finding voids.

Orrin: We know (from ephemere that all night voids are present. SO any void that there is will rely on sun.

Orrin: Along the very bottom of the sheet there are some buttons

Orrin: Find the one that says 'Active' and click it

Orrin: Find the one that says 'Active' and click it

Orrin: To get back to the main sheet, click 'Master'

Orrin: You should see a table with a set of + marks

Orrin: a + mark denotes that a reaction happens here.

Orrin: You can see the Thi->Car and Car-> Thi feedback very easily here, those two big lines

Orrin: Need to wait a few more minutes to the sun to get past 79

Hanid: Can you explain how to use the feedbacks

Orrin: ehmmm, not more than I have really...

Orrin: It's basically making 10 of something go to more of something, then that something must become more of the thing that was used to create it at the end of a cycle

Orrin: So long as the 10 that is converted to say 20, you must get more than 5 of it back

Hanid: How do you move things without disrupting things you want

Orrin: That's the trick of it, you have to learn/look at what affects what

Orrin: right, sun is 80+ now

Orrin: So, if we start a farm off with the sun open, 3 clicks of water and Oxy

Orrin: We can put '99' in the sun column in the spreadsheet, since there are no voids that require sun >80

Orrin: We then must compare the output of the farm to that of the spreadsheet

Orrin: There are no differences. So we mark the lines with +'s in them with a symbol, I use A

Orrin: Then we convert the Pyr to something, let's try Nia. Add 4 clicks of Water.

Orrin: Do the same on the farm

Orrin: No differences

Orrin: Note that there was a limited feedback there. Pyr has gone up, but we didnt add any dung or saltpeter

Orrin: The other sunlight reaction to test is Car->Pyr

Orrin: But if we look at our 'Active' sheet, we see that we've already done it

Orrin: So we're left with asc->Thi

Orrin: TO make this happen, we need either enough Asc that it can be converted by other reactions and there is still some left by the time it gets to converting to Thi, or stop all other Asc conversions

Orrin: So start a new farm, and shut the lid. This creates Fol

Orrin: remember to add the all importnat 3 click water/oxy at Tick 0

Orrin: then on the sim, open the sun to 99 at tick 16

Orrin: 16 is merely a point where the values are stable

Orrin: You see now that we have entered another feedback cycle

Orrin: Asc is being converted away at 20/cycle, yet 20 or more per cycle is being created

Orrin: (I think I may ahve misread on the void reqs, but it's a good example)

Orrin: You can see Asc climbing

Hanid: so if you can create a scenario with a plus mark in "Active" there is no void there?

Orrin: correct

Orrin: So long as the farm and sim agree, there is *likely* to be no void

Orrin: There's always a chance that a void elsewhere is making it look the same, but usually it becomes obvious later on

Hanid: I am not seeing pluses on Nia>Thi

Orrin: nope, because there is no situation in which that woiuld happen.

Orrin: You must create one in which that conversion would happen, then do it on a farm. If they agree, there is no void.

Hanid: so If I voided out all other thi> conversions I might see it?

Orrin: No, all other Nia conversions.

Orrin: Or have enough Nia for Nia->Thi to happen

Orrin: and have less than 49 water

Hanid: sorry that is what I meant

Hanid: So if you have 99 Nia you might be able to get Nia>Fol first then Nia>Thi?

Orrin: yes

Orrin: conversions to Thi happen last in the line, so there must be enough left by then to do the conversion

Hanid: woot

Hanid:I finally am getting it

Orrin: Glad I could help :)

Hanid: Thanks so so so much for your patience

Orrin: here conludes the lesson.