The Wiki for Tale 4 is in read-only mode and is available for archival and reference purposes only. Please visit the current Tale 11 Wiki in the meantime.

If you have any issues with this Wiki, please post in #wiki-editing on Discord or contact Brad in-game.

Difference between revisions of "Alloys"

From A Tale in the Desert
Jump to navigationJump to search
 
(92 intermediate revisions by 30 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
−
The process of producing alloys is quite different compared to previous tellings.
+
==Overview==
 +
Alloys are created from various smelted metals in a [[Reactory]].  The process of producing alloys is quite different compared to previous tellings.
  
−
'''[[Brass]]'''
+
To initially start a batch of an alloy takes 5 [[Charcoal]], the metals, and 1 Tree Resin. The type of resin needed depends on the type of alloy you are making.  After working the batch of alloy until it crystalizes, you can take the amount of alloy made, or you can Re-Heat the batch. You often want to re-heat the batch if the amount of alloy made is not satisfactory. Re-heating the batch costs 3 [[Charcoal]] and 1 resin more.
−
:7 [[Copper]], 1 [[Tin]], 1 [[Resin]]:Stout Palm, 5 [[Charcoal]]
 
−
'''[[Bronze]]'''
 
−
:7 [[Copper]], 1 [[Zinc]], 1 [[Resin]]:Fern Palm, 5 [[Charcoal]]
 
−
'''[[Pewter]]'''
 
−
:7 [[Iron]], 4 [[Antimony]], 1 [[Brass]], 1 [[Resin]]:Royal Palm, 5 [[Charcoal]]
 
−
'''[[Steel]]'''
 
−
:7 [[Iron]], 1 [[Tin]], 1 [[Resin]]:Towering Palm, 5 [[Charcoal]]
 
  
−
=Info=
+
==Alloy Types and Costs==
  
−
I've made an info bit to try and get past the old discussion. Don't want to delete it though as it's still good stuff, but we need a new bit to discuss things now we know a bit more.
+
If you update this list, please also update the table on the [[Reactory]] page.
  
 +
====Advanced Metallurgy (1)====
 +
'''[[Brass]]''' (100% = 8)
 +
:7 [[Copper]], 1 [[Tin]], 1 [[Resin]]:[[Stout Palm]], 5 [[Charcoal]]
 +
'''[[Bronze]]''' (100% = 8)
 +
:7 [[Copper]], 1 [[Zinc]], 1 [[Resin]]:[[Fern Palm]], 5 [[Charcoal]]
 +
'''[[Pewter]]''' (100% = 12)
 +
:7 [[Iron]], 4 [[Antimony]], 1 [[Brass]], 1 [[Resin]]:[[Royal Palm]], 5 [[Charcoal]]
 +
'''[[Steel]]''' (100% = 8)
 +
:7 [[Iron]], 1 [[Tin]], 1 [[Resin]]:[[Towering Palm]], 5 [[Charcoal]]
 +
====Advanced Metallurgy (2)====
 +
'''[[Moon Steel]]''' (100% = 13)
 +
:7 [[Steel]], 3 [[Brass]], 3 [[Pewter]], 1 [[Resin]]:[[Hawthorn]], 5 [[Charcoal]]
 +
'''[[Sun Steel]]''' (100% = 13)
 +
:7 [[Steel]], 3 [[Brass]], 3 [[Bronze]], 1 [[Resin]]:[[Umbrella Palm]], 5 [[Charcoal]]
 +
====Advanced Metallurgy (3)====
 +
'''[[Thoth's Metal]]''' (100% = 15)
 +
:7 [[Steel]], 4 [[Moon Steel]], 4 [[Sun Steel]], 1 [[Resin]]:[[Folded Birch]], 5 [[Charcoal]]
 +
'''[[Water Metal]]''' (100% = 14)
 +
:7 [[Steel]], 4 [[Moon Steel]], 3 [[Silver]], 1 [[Resin]]:[[Pratyeka Tree]], 5 [[Charcoal]]
 +
====Advanced Metallurgy (4)====
 +
'''[[Metal Blue]]''' (100% = 21)
 +
:7 [[Steel]], 5 [[Thoth's Metal]], 5 [[Water Metal]], 4 [[Tungsten]], 1 [[Resin]]:[[Cerulean Blue]], 5 [[Charcoal]]
  
−
Time has absolutely *nothing* to do with the circles as far as I can see, and I've spent over 2k CC reheating one batch. However, before I divulge it all, I want to check with a dev that things are working as intended, as I have slight suspicions over a few things. But be warned, making alloys this tale is *not* an easy easy job. They take a lot of CC, resin and time to practice. And I mean a lot. There are so many factors that affect successful creation it's getting towards the level of complexity of smithing. You can get all circles together, click in the middle, and it'll still give 50%. Just as a note, I've gotten all circles together, clicked in the middle for the last one and gotten 50% yield. So we're missing something, or the 'middle' spot is amazingly (read very amazingly, I'm using a graphics tablet so my clicking is very accurate) sensitive.
+
====Advanced Metallurgy (5)====
 +
'''[[Octec's Alloy]]''' (100% = '''21''')
 +
:7 [[Steel]], 5 [[Thoth's Metal]], 5 [[Water Metal]], 4 [[Tungsten]], 1 [[Resin]]:[[Oil Palm]], 5 [[Charcoal]]
 +
::* Cannot reheat.  The batch must be abandoned using the Utility menu.
  
−
Orrin
+
==Mechanism==
  
−
===Theories===
+
The rules governing the behavior of the Reactory are as follows (more detail and historical information can be found in the [[Talk:Alloys|discussion page]]):
  
−
No time is involved, stated by devs so that's a fact.
+
*We define the active circle as the circle that has its center nearest your mouse click, that circle will not move (no matter if you click in overlaps or not).
  
−
There is no % opacity at which it crystalises.
+
*Circles overlapping with the active circle will move towards it like magnets, the nearer they are, the more they will move.
  
−
Clicking on the middle of a circle, on the overlap of a circle, in the blackspace just outside a circle is *not* guaranteed to make it crystalise. I've done all 3 and it hasn't crystalised some times, others it has.
+
*If the click results in 2 or more circles congealing completely, the batch crystalizes.  The crystalization percentage depends on the number of circles that congeal with the last active circle.  So your last click is important: don't just click in the middle of the bright white blob, but try to attract the max number of circles with that last click.
  
−
* i have started clicking on the black spots where the most circles connect. This has been giving me the best results for some reason. I notice it either spreads the crystals or moves them closer depending on the pattern and piles of crystals near it. - [[User:kibble|kibble]]
+
*Estimate of when 2 circles congeal after a click: if a circle has center to center distance to active circle of less than half the circle radius, they will congeal and crystallization will be the result.
  
−
=Lokim's Tutorial=
+
==Output==
  
−
The reactory functions as such:
+
A batch's percentage of crystallization is calculated as follows:
−
* A click on a circle draws all the circles it touches toward the mid-point of the clicked circle
+
  Crystallization = (N - 1) / (T - 1)
−
* A circle with no others touching it has no function as it does not move any other circles towards its mid-point
+
−
* A click on an overlap will crystalize the alloy
+
    N = number of circles perfectly overlapping after crystallization
−
* A click on the black background will crystalize the alloy only if circles are currently too close together
+
    T = total number of circles
−
 
+
This number is shown as an integer, but likely keeps any fractional part for the purposes of calculating the output.
−
[[Reactory_Tutorial_Image.png]]
 
−
 
 
−
The above file shows three points to click:
 
−
*
 
−
 
 
−
I have achieved 100% in all of the alloy's tried so far and receive predictable results on nearly every click.
 
−
 
 
−
=Discussion=
 
−
 
 
−
'''Snippet of the short discussion on E! just after the release of the tech:'''
 
−
 
 
−
'''Coyan:''' this is what I have figured out so far once it goes through its 15 second cycle there are a number of light grey circles in the black pool  you get 1 or 2 clicks, or you are timed, not sure yet  the circles seem to move towards your mouse click  the more of those that get to your mouse, the higher the crystalization  at 37% crystalization with steel, I got 1 steel with 67% crystalization with brass, I got 6 brass  at 25% and lower, 0 of both
 
−
 
 
−
'''Marcus:''' It seems to be quite complicated, and i believe there is a randomness factor in it.
 
−
 
 
−
'''Daniels:''' how many reactories can you run at once? I mean, are the clicking cycles fast orslow?
 
−
'''Voyna:''' fast
 
−
 
 
−
'''Marcus:''' reactories are not timed based im almost poastive unless its a time per click
 
−
 
 
−
'''Marcus:''' New possability, you have to keep clicking in places where it would keep the circles apart?
 
−
'''Marcus:''' because when i bring the circles together i get nothing but shit yeilds
 
−
 
 
−
'''MouseD:''' I just got 33% gave me 1 brass the tighter the cricles together seems to be it ...mine shows like a almost full color white circle now
 
−
 
 
−
'''Kyline:''' how do you know how much metal to put in?
 
−
'''MouseD:''' when you start it up it tells you how much metals you need for each alloy your making
 
−
 
 
−
'''MouseD:''' http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale4/Image:Brass.JPG
 
−
 
 
−
'''Zaniac:''' wow that means ALOT of time on reactorys now to make the amounts we use cause no doubt teppy didnt lower HOW much we need Just HOW we make it
 
−
 
 
−
'''MouseD:''' well coyan got 6 brass of one of his loads now
 
−
 
 
−
'''MouseD:''' seems the higher the % is the more you will get but its time consuming for usre much worse then last tale with doping at 8 hr mark now
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
'''Ive been able to get 75% crystalization with steel (5) by clicking once off and then once on.. there has to be some pattern to it, I don't think its time based somehow I get the feeling that each alloy will have different method, but we will see. Haven't had much luck with brass.
 
−
 
 
−
'''update 1:''' Okay it looks like definitely not timed based. I think the general idea is you have to get the circles as close together before they overlap and become too "white" thus crystalizing and ending the game. So I think the idea is to manipulate the circles in such a way that they all come together with one click into a large white spot though how clicking moves the circles I'm still working on.
 
−
 
 
−
'''update 2:''' (Turkeybone) So Summit and I have been continuing research -- it seems like its important to get them all together on the final hit, and to hit the largest white crystal/area on that final hit. Also it seems very apparent that there is a luck factor, based on the starting points of the circles.
 
−
 
 
−
'''update 3:''' (Kyline) So I had a go at this and it seems its much like woodtreatment in that the closer a circle is to your point of click the faster (further) it will travel toward it
 
−
 
 
−
'''update 4:''' (Terg) This was 12%? http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale4/Image:ThisWasTwelvePercent.jpg  - (Murat) i agree with Terg.This was % 12 too.!
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
''' It appears that the maximum amount of Steel obtainable from a reactory run is 8, as seen in the pic below.
 
−
[[Image:IdealSteel.jpg]]
 
−
 
 
−
'''update 5:''' (Nissim) on Brass, I reached the following yields: 1 brass at 33%, 2 at 44%, 3 at 55%, 5 at 66% and 6 at 77%. I confirm all the above, particularly updates 1 and 2: the aim is to merge the grey spots but without reaching a too "white" intensity until the last click. There is definitely a chance factor. Clicking on the intersection of 2 grey spots will give one whiter spot. Start with merging the less white spots at the beginning then try to progressively add to them so that the intensity of the white increases gradually.
 
−
 
 
−
'''update 6''' (Daniels)  I think I've got it!  Taken from E!:
 
−
 
 
−
'''Daniels:''' Ok, here's what I'm doing.  It is hard to explain.
 
−
 
 
−
'''Tibo:''' thank you because I've been messing with it for 8 hours.. and I really just want to get some brass and steel
 
−
 
 
−
'''Daniels:''' The wiki is correct, you want the crystals to be as tightly stacked as possible, with as few crystals as possible scattered.
 
−
 
 
−
'''Daniels:''' The trick that is not on the wiki is, you must click on a section of a crystal that IS NOT overlapping any other crystal.  If you only click on a crystal that IS NOT overlapping with any other crystal, you get another click.
 
−
 
 
−
'''Daniels:''' by "crystal" I mean one sphere, of course.
 
−
 
 
−
'''Tibo:''' yes but most of the time they are overlapping.
 
−
 
 
−
'''Turkeybone:''' so the part you click is not overlapping, or the whole crystal is not overlapping
 
−
 
 
−
'''Daniels:''' So, when your crystals are overlapping each other, only click the border of the crystal that is not lined up with any other crystal.
 
−
 
 
−
'''Daniels:''' It doesn't matter if a portion of the crystal is overlapping, just click the portion that IS NOT overlapping with any crystal :)
 
−
 
 
−
'''Daniels:''' You can donate your raeli ovens to me please :)
 
−
 
 
−
'''Tibo:''' I will if this works, I will
 
−
 
 
−
'''fryoj:''' If that works, and I can actuall do alloys, I will build ou a raeli oven. lol
 
−
 
 
−
'''Robare:''' LOL....that was a great revalation Daniels....well done :)
 
  
−
'''Daniels: '''The hardest part for me is to visually identify a portion of a crystal that is not overlapping. So, with all of that said, it is still difficult. But my yields are great atm.
+
Output is calculated as follows:
 +
  Output (debens) = M * (X - F) / (100% - F)
 
   
 
   
−
'''Daniels: '''thanks Rob
+
    M = Total debens of metals put into the batch
−
 
+
    X = Crystallization percentage of the batch
−
'''Daniels: '''One last trick, if you have most of the crystals semi-lined up, you can spend your final click on the center of them.  This will crystalize the batch.  I'm not sure how many crystals can be OUTSIDE of your concentrated lump.  And the lump has to be completely concentrated.
+
    F = Floor crystallization percentage
−
 
+
The floor percentage is different for each metal, and its calculation method is unclear, but it appears to be determinable as the highest crystallization percentage at which no output is received (example, F=25% for [[steel]], and F=33% for [[pewter]]).
−
'''Tibo:''' Daniels I love you, 100%!
 
−
 
 
−
'''Daniels:''' Wow, well you beat me :)
 
−
 
 
−
'''diania:''' how much you yield for 100%
 
−
 
 
−
'''Tibo:''' double f8 for the best accuracy!
 
−
 
 
−
'''Tibo:''' 8 brass
 
−
 
 
−
'''diania:''' double f8 and zoom in?
 
−
 
 
−
'''Tibo:''' Yep!
 
−
 
 
−
'''MouseD:''' what I have been using too is double F8 zoom in and alt L it  
 
−
 
 
−
'''Daniels:''' Well, with double f8, part of the machine gets in the way only slightly.  I use f5 at an angle.
 
−
 
 
−
'''There appears to be other rules that apply in more rare situations, as well as other details that this can be expanded on.'''
 
−
 
 
−
'''update 7''' (Nissim) I tested Daniels' method and was not very successful. I believe that you need to always click on the "center of gravity" of the whole batch. The rate at which the spots are moving is inversely proportional to their whiteness, i.e. the whiter the spot, the slowlier it moves. You can click in a pretty white zone (if it is not too much white) provided it seems to be at the center of gravity of the spots that you are trying to merge. I could achieve 100% once doing this.
 
−
 
 
−
'''update 8''' (Daniels) Using my technique (Update 6), I've found three more rules, and an added suggestion.  First, '''update 2''' by Turkeybone is very important.  Save the last click to center the crystals.  If the stack of crystals is even off by a little bit, even if you have managed to collect every single crystal within this stack, it will result in a 12%.  The stack must be PERFECT.  Secondly, applying my technique of clicking only on a portion of a crystal that is not overlapping, you must also avoid clicking on the far edge of a crystal.  It is best to click on the center, or near center of a crystal.  I have proven this by having a set of crystals in a Reactory where one crystal is completely stand alone (not touching another crystal).  The center of this stand alone crystal can be clicked an infinite number of times without crystallizing the batch.  Third, only crystals connected to the crystal that you click will move.  They will move towards the point that you clicked, with larger clumps of crystals and further crystals moving slower.  Finally, the last suggestion is to focus on the largest "clump" of connected crystals, and leave the others alone.  Many crystals can be left out of the final clump, and still give 37% or higher.  I have also gotten 100% using these methods, but more importantly my yields are very high.  I've made over 100 steel in under 30 minutes using 2 Reactories at once (playing one while waiting for the other to heat).  I have briefly tried Nissim's technique, but I am not sure what "not too much white" means, and have found it to be less reliable than my technique.  Try both techniques and see which works better for you.
 
−
 
 
−
'''Kwinten''' I have noticed the white spots move. Perhaps this can help to get higher crystalization percentages.
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
The 'cannot click circle if it's overlapping' is wrong.
 
−
 
 
−
Not True!!
 
−
 
 
−
There's most probably a certain % opactity that controls crystalisation. If any part on the grid becomes that opaque, then it finishes. According to that principle, it would be best to spread out the circles evenly then click in the middle.
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
(Edit: the above statement is conjecture, despite its definitive tone. -- Ouij)
 
−
 
 
−
(Edit: Yeh, sorry bout that... it's wrong too)
 
−
 
 
−
(Edit: you're funny, mate)
 
−
 
 
−
I don't think opacity has anything to do with it. From the tests and runs i've made , it appears , that if just 2 of the circles line up completely , the mixture crystalies . Have tried it a few times and always had it crystalise when 2 line up with each other .
 
−
Can someone else see if they can verify this for me please . Galagah
 
  
 +
Put plainly, the output is exactly 0 at or below the floor crystallization, equal to the sum of the input metals at 100% crystallization, and scales linearly between the two points.
  
−
==== Please explain this: (Zreyas)====
+
Note that because fractions are kept internally, a larger batch from an upgraded Reactory will not necessarily produce an exact multiple of the output from a normal-sized batch at the same crystallization.
  
−
I'm posting 3 25% pictures and 1 75%  Nothing makes sense and I'm really thinking at this point we are dealing with bugs.  Maybe I am missing something.  The 75% one as Myn and I spoke about looks about right, but the 25% ones just don't make sense to me.
+
==Guides==
  
−
(Tokiryu) Take a close look at the 'halo' around the white center - on the 75% picture it's umm... 'ordered', it has some 'patterns' in it and it's symmetric, while on the 25% pictures it's just a random mass of grey. That means that on the 75% the white centers are very close together, but on the 25% ones they're a bit away from each other. So, that's the difference... but it doesn't help in getting high yields regularly anyway :/
+
Here is a quick do and do not guide by wyked [[alloyyesandno | avoiding crystalization]]
  
−
--------------------------------------------------
+
Here is a beginner's guide to practical alloys by [[User:Daniels|Daniels]]: [[User:Daniels\AlloyGuide|Practical Beginning Alloys]]
−
'''25% Crystallizations:'''
 
  
−
[[Image:Alloy - 25%-1.jpg|200px|thumb|left|25% picture 1]]
+
Here is a youtube video guide for alloy by [[User:Daniels|Daniels]]: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U7Q6DaMyNI Video Guide]
−
[[Image:Alloy - 25%-2.jpg|200px|thumb|left|25% picture 2]] 
 
−
[[Image:Alloy - 25%-3.jpg|200px|thumb|left|25% picture 3]]
 
−
[[Image:Alloy - 75%.jpg|200px|thumb|left|75% picture 1]]
 

Latest revision as of 00:21, 16 February 2010

Overview

Alloys are created from various smelted metals in a Reactory. The process of producing alloys is quite different compared to previous tellings.

To initially start a batch of an alloy takes 5 Charcoal, the metals, and 1 Tree Resin. The type of resin needed depends on the type of alloy you are making. After working the batch of alloy until it crystalizes, you can take the amount of alloy made, or you can Re-Heat the batch. You often want to re-heat the batch if the amount of alloy made is not satisfactory. Re-heating the batch costs 3 Charcoal and 1 resin more.

Alloy Types and Costs

If you update this list, please also update the table on the Reactory page.

Advanced Metallurgy (1)

Brass (100% = 8)

7 Copper, 1 Tin, 1 Resin:Stout Palm, 5 Charcoal

Bronze (100% = 8)

7 Copper, 1 Zinc, 1 Resin:Fern Palm, 5 Charcoal

Pewter (100% = 12)

7 Iron, 4 Antimony, 1 Brass, 1 Resin:Royal Palm, 5 Charcoal

Steel (100% = 8)

7 Iron, 1 Tin, 1 Resin:Towering Palm, 5 Charcoal

Advanced Metallurgy (2)

Moon Steel (100% = 13)

7 Steel, 3 Brass, 3 Pewter, 1 Resin:Hawthorn, 5 Charcoal

Sun Steel (100% = 13)

7 Steel, 3 Brass, 3 Bronze, 1 Resin:Umbrella Palm, 5 Charcoal

Advanced Metallurgy (3)

Thoth's Metal (100% = 15)

7 Steel, 4 Moon Steel, 4 Sun Steel, 1 Resin:Folded Birch, 5 Charcoal

Water Metal (100% = 14)

7 Steel, 4 Moon Steel, 3 Silver, 1 Resin:Pratyeka Tree, 5 Charcoal

Advanced Metallurgy (4)

Metal Blue (100% = 21)

7 Steel, 5 Thoth's Metal, 5 Water Metal, 4 Tungsten, 1 Resin:Cerulean Blue, 5 Charcoal

Advanced Metallurgy (5)

Octec's Alloy (100% = 21)

7 Steel, 5 Thoth's Metal, 5 Water Metal, 4 Tungsten, 1 Resin:Oil Palm, 5 Charcoal
  • Cannot reheat. The batch must be abandoned using the Utility menu.

Mechanism

The rules governing the behavior of the Reactory are as follows (more detail and historical information can be found in the discussion page):

  • We define the active circle as the circle that has its center nearest your mouse click, that circle will not move (no matter if you click in overlaps or not).
  • Circles overlapping with the active circle will move towards it like magnets, the nearer they are, the more they will move.
  • If the click results in 2 or more circles congealing completely, the batch crystalizes. The crystalization percentage depends on the number of circles that congeal with the last active circle. So your last click is important: don't just click in the middle of the bright white blob, but try to attract the max number of circles with that last click.
  • Estimate of when 2 circles congeal after a click: if a circle has center to center distance to active circle of less than half the circle radius, they will congeal and crystallization will be the result.

Output

A batch's percentage of crystallization is calculated as follows: 

Crystallization = (N - 1) / (T - 1)

   N = number of circles perfectly overlapping after crystallization
   T = total number of circles

This number is shown as an integer, but likely keeps any fractional part for the purposes of calculating the output.

Output is calculated as follows: 

Output (debens) =  M * (X - F) / (100% - F)

   M = Total debens of metals put into the batch
   X = Crystallization percentage of the batch
   F = Floor crystallization percentage

The floor percentage is different for each metal, and its calculation method is unclear, but it appears to be determinable as the highest crystallization percentage at which no output is received (example, F=25% for steel, and F=33% for pewter).

Put plainly, the output is exactly 0 at or below the floor crystallization, equal to the sum of the input metals at 100% crystallization, and scales linearly between the two points.

Note that because fractions are kept internally, a larger batch from an upgraded Reactory will not necessarily produce an exact multiple of the output from a normal-sized batch at the same crystallization.

Guides

Here is a quick do and do not guide by wyked avoiding crystalization

Here is a beginner's guide to practical alloys by Daniels: Practical Beginning Alloys

Here is a youtube video guide for alloy by Daniels: Video Guide

Retrieved from "http://www.atitd.org/wiki/t4w/index.php?title=Alloys&oldid=180830"