Demipharaoh Debates/2012 10 02

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Debate scheduled for Sunday September 30th at 00:00 GMT (This is Saturday September 29th at 8pm Eastern Time (US))

M: Babalu
M: Gyges
M: silver

Debate between Gyges & silver (Babalu, the 3rd candidate, did not participate in the live debate and indicated to the moderator he would like to drop out of the race) from September 30th 2012

Dreasimy: Welcome to our Debate in the 10th Election for Demi-Pharaoh of the 6th Tale of ATITD! For the duration of the debate normal Worship Station posts will be halted (you can use L2PBS for this purpose during this period). The candidates in this election are Gyges and silver!

Dreasimy: You may wonder why Babalu is not participating, he told me the following: Babalu: "Well, as it turns out I am droping off the race. From tomorrow on I will be pretty busy, so I guess Ill run again some other time. Thanks anyway. Later"

Dreasimy: If you have questions that you would like to submit during the debate, just submit them to Worship Station or via Chat to Dreasimy but please note that comments, discussion, personal attacks, and redundant questions will be tabled or asked to be rephrased. Also, I will do my best to also reframe any candidate-specific questions so that all candidates can answer them (tho your original question will remain in tact for the person you specified.)

Dreasimy: Let's begin ze examinationz!

For those who have never had the opportunity to interact with you before can you share a little about yourself, what you enjoy about ATITD as well as how long you have been playing?

Gyges: Good evening! I'll try to answer that question in order...

Gyges: Outside of Egypt, I'm a manager at a bank... I've been with the same company for the past seven years. I'm married IRL to my Egypt spouse, Roweena. We have two cats (Beren & Luthien) that like to hassle me whenever I'm trying to forge anything... or really do anything that requires my focus. My wife and I are expecting our first baby in March.

Gyges: In Egypt, I have a couple of strange habits. I love Architecture (Obelisk and Towers are my personal favorites) and Leadership. Aside from test participation, I'm working on a project to plot incense statistics, do an obscene amount of beer making and I'm ok at blacksmithing. Recently I've started doing some work on VT. Macro design is a big interest of mine because it's a way to systematically approach problem solving... which is one of the things I really enjoy about this game.

Gyges: I've been playing this telling basically since the beginning of the tale. I played for a few months back in Tale 2 and I think 3. I had started both of those tellings late.

Gyges: I'm also trying to make beer during the debate... so if I start slurring my speach, that's why ;)

Silver: I'm a programmer (web apps) with one cat and no life and I play this game all evening. Which is sad, really :). Anyway. I started in t1, but skipped t2-5, so I'm an old n00b. Or a noobish oldie. Somethng. I like building stuff and talking to people and helping out and stuff. I used to be into thought tests but these days I'm too busy with my aqueduct project

Silver: I run a public camp and trade at a loss. I contribute to research, still help people with tests I've passed. the usual nice guy stuff.

If you win this election you will pass the test of the Demi-Pharaoh and be our 10th DP of this tale. There are a variety of points of view on what the role of DP should and shouldn’t be, what is yours?

Gyges: I think DP is one of the most interesting tests... it's the one I use to describe this strange MMO that I play to my friends.

Gyges: It's funny--I don't think anyone is really excited about giving out ban power. I know I'm certainly not. That being said, with the population dwindling so much, I don't think that banning is really something on the table for most of us.

Gyges: My interest is twofold: 1) we need more sages of leadership (I don't know that 6 more mentor shrines are in the cards for me) and 2) I feel like I'm a pretty reasonable person... and I'm pretty good at resolving disputes at work. (Side note: in almost 6 years as a manager, I've had to fire 3 people. In every case it was an absolute last resort, but the right thing to do. I feel the same way about bans.)

Gyges: Plus, this way kuupid won't be able to ban me because I serve disgusting wine flavor combinations. This is a legitimate fear.

Silver: ATitD is interesting because it's an MMO that isn't just about reaching a level cap and collecting phat loot endlessly - it has has an end, with a win condition for all of Egypt. My focus is on seeing us win. Which means oracles. Which means an oracle of leadership and 2 sages of leadership and 4 masters and so on. We need people not just pass leadership tests willy nilly, but we need to concentrate the ones with rare passes (mentorship, cartouche, DP) on a few people, or we all lose.

Silver: A lot of hay is made of the DP's (fictional) role in resolving disputes, which I admit is not one of my strong suits - I like problems I can build my way out of. But I'm a good listener, and tend to make firm decisions and get people to follow them. I occasionally show bouts of real leadership (bringing together for a common cause).

How would you handle it, as DP, if you were involved in an interpersonal conflict with another player? On a related note, how would you handle it if a close personal friend or guildmate made a complaint, or had a complaint made against them, and were seeking your intervention as DP and possibly a ban?

Gyges: I agree with silver completely on the test points, btw. A coordinated effort to advance our existing DPs in Cartouche should be something we all work on... getting an oracle is important.

Gyges: AFAIK, I've had all of one "interpersonal conflict with another player" all tale. And, as with so many conflicts, it was over something where the right thing to do was for me to just walk away... which I did.

Gyges: Not to be dismissive of the question, but I don't think it's terribly likely to happen. If I screw up on something, I try to make it right--right away. (Just ask Hillsnvalleys) Obviously if there's some serious dispute where there is a question about what constitutes a fair or equitable decision, I'd try to agree with the other person on an appropriate mediator (and another DP would be a likely candidate). The same goes for a dispute involving a friend and a stranger. If I'm not able to be fair/objective, I'm not going to get involved as a mediator.

Silver: I don't have conflicts with other people. I might get mad for a bit, but I log off, come back a few hours later and never think of it again. They might hold a grudge against me, of course, but then I'd just avoid them. // if a friend were seeking DP intervention, I'd defer them to another DP (if I were the only DP left or available, I'd consult DPs from previous tales. if none of those were available, the game is already dead and it doesn't matter).

Silver: and if they sought a ban, I'd tell them to seek elsewhere. I'm not going to ban anyone for anything less than geodude level painfulness. I'm on record as having banned people in t1 - but those were all on the last day and by request of the "victim". other than that, the 21 bans I controlled sat idle.

Under what circumstances would you consider utilizing the tools created by the Anti-Griefer's Act (AGA) law? What do you consider 'griefing'? Do you feel the AGA has been used well so far?

Gyges: With one exception, I think AGA has been used very appropriately. The one time it was used inappropriately ("kuupid has accused pharaoh of being a griefer..."), it was sufficiently hilarious that I don't have much complaint about it. There's a certain amount of griefing in this game, as in any game, that is in the spirit of fair play (overbuilding obelisks just to overbuild, for example)... I think that sort of thing has to be allowed. To me, it only becomes prohibitted griefing when there is no in-game recourse to address the issue beyond gm/dp intervention (e.g. the woodplane griefing).

Gyges: Chariot destruction, or other horrifying use of explosives, strikes me as something that *might* reach ban level. silver is carrying an excellent law that would help nip that problem in the bud for this tale.

Gyges: In general, where griefing like this is possible, I think we could write better laws to address the fundamental issue. I'm really not a fan of the ban at all. If someone truly deserves banning, AGA is the tool to use, though I'm not, in principle, opposed to the use of the temporary ban to try to calm things down and restore sanity.

Silver: Geodude level pain = AGA. To me grieding is actively trying to ruin other people's fun for the lulz. If you're just an overambitious test passer, you're not really a griefer. But if your stated goal is to make other people miserable, you don't really belong around here. I agree with Gyges that the Pharaoh act was not "appropriate" but was funny.

Gyges: I *was* trying not to mention him by name. He gets mentioned in every debate =(

Silver: oh, the law I'm carrying wouldn't help with most explosions. The one I'm carrying is just about being able to have public chem labs. I like having public buildings and don't like that I have to restrict my chem labs for fear of accidental camp damage.

Silver: I voted for the Explosives Safety Act which would've helped with chariot damage. Dunno why it got such poor turn out.

Gyges: Ah, yes. I get those confused all the time. I support boht! 2012-09-30 00:23:00 Silver: Though probably indicates we can't rely on laws to help with griefing since people won't vote for them.

Gyges: What a depressing thought.

Gyges: Sorry for interrupting... please continue!

Silver: Temp ban wasn't an option in t1. I reviewed its usage in tales 3-5 from the logs and agreed with all the times it was used, and might consider it a tool for similar activities if they were to recur now.

Silver: I'm just not too worried. Low population, everyone mostly gets along. Raeli drama is over... not much left to fight over.

Dreasimy: I'd like to delve into some specifics about activities that some might consider griefing, some you've already touched on

Would you consider any of the following playstyles as worthy of DP intervention? Obelisk queue violation, bonfiring of a clay patches to prevent others from building, overweighing Phoenix runners (test or event) with bricks, using strategically placed incense to interupt Phoenix runners, using large quantities of alts to rig elections, mentorship advancement, or other test passes?

Silver: no, no, do people do that? do that people do that? no, no, no.

Gyges: Obelisk queues: almost certainly not. Bonfiring of clay patches: if I had designed the game, people who do that would automatically be double-billed and then have their subscriptions cancelled, but I wouldn't ban for it...

Dreasimy: No I don't think they've done that, it's a hypothetical that was brought up in a previous debate so I included it :D

Silver: (specifically, why are running around nearly full to pass phoenix? you can't teleport, so you're not going to use a chariot. you should already have a wh full of stuff near the tower you're building at).

Gyges: Seriously, do people do that with phoenix? I figured with people passing with 1 point it was a non issue.

Gyges: That and a decent carry recipe... 10k+carry is pretty easy... I have a recipe if anyone needs it.

Gyges: rigging elections is tacky but no. no and no again.

Gyges: I like the incense idea, though. Far funnier would be strategically placed -per incense near all major patches of wood. But again, no.

Silver: in t1 I specifically played with using alts to rig tests and tried my damndest to break the system. But that was as an experiment. A game aginst Teppy, to see if he could design something I couldn't rig. Once I concluded I could be O7 from alts, I stopped because the problem was solved (degree in Math :) ).

Gyges: silver and I share an interest in determining what can and can't be done.

Silver: If people want to use alts for mentorship or even to pass art tests, I'm not 100% convinced that's different from having really good friends who only play because they like you and just do what you want. I had such a friend before - no interest in the game until he saw my playing too much, started playing just to help me.

Silver: good friend or spouse.

Gyges: I think that's a fair point. At this point I'm not sure if Mentorship is even possible without help like that. It may be.

Gyges: But with the population declining so much... I'm not sure. I consider myself fortunate to have had an opportunity to help a new player enough that he stayed in game.

Silver: yes, I'd love more people to stick around. Especially the kind of people who are willing to pay double or triple, because that increases the odds the game will continue :)

Gyges: haha. True that.

cate: What other powers would you like to see DPs hold, in the intersts of improving game play?

Gyges: I don't know that there are any "powers" I'd like to give them, per se. Maybe the power to initiate an instant ballot on laws that have been presented? It's a thought, anyway.

Gyges: Also the power to grow and deliver 5000 malt to my warehouse, weekly, on Monday mornings.

Gyges: I think the responsibility for improving game play falls to most of us... if we want the next tale to be better, we need to make sure we build monuments for the disciplines and design a better set of tests for next time. That means ensuring we actually GET to the monuments.

Silver: Well, I'd think the test would be more interesting if DPs actually stood for something besides "I won't ban people unless they're Really Freaking Bad(tm)"... I'm not sure I'd give DPs as they stand actual powers, though. I'd like to see a version where each region elects a DP for a time and those people can make some kind of consensus which can actually affects laws and distribute abandoned property. But with life-time appointments and single-person actions... no. No more powers.

Gyges: I like the regional governor idea, silver. We should write a law...

Silver: or a test

Zhukuram: q: As we are nearing or at the mid-way to end of tale. How do you perceive the role of DP chaning with the reduced game population?

Dreasimy: (If you are listening in and have a question to ask but haven't submitted it to the channel yet, please do so, that way I can use it in a topical place or make sure I don't ask a question making yours irrelevant, thanks!)

Gyges: More focused toward oracle... I think starting to look at test ideas is worthwhile... because we need to sell Egypt on the idea of willingly giving up a Cartouche win (for example) to a current DP... especially any who have passed Mentorship.

Silver: since I already think the DP's main role is about monument support, I don't see it changing. I do think the declining population (and especially all the absentee DPs) means we should be trying harder to elect people to be masters/sages of leadership - kuupid needs help to make the monument :)

Gyges: agreed... completely.

Does anyone have access to login to your account? (i.e., would any person other than yourself ever have access to your ban powers)? Note: spouselog does not allow access to ban powers.

Silver: no.

Gyges: no. and I hate that my wife is always trying to tell me her ATM pin.

Have you played ATITD under other names in this tale or past ones, and if so, what were the names you played under?

Gyges: pretty sure the answer to that is "no." Definitely was Gyges in Tale 2. Probably in Tale 3.

Silver: I was silver before, still silver now. I don't remember the names of all my alts from t1, but if you played Star Control 2 and just listed all the races, that would cover most of them.

Gyges: hahaha.

Gyges: Ur-quan?

Silver: definitely.

Gyges: Good man.

Silver: Chenjesu, Spathi, Umgah... less sure which of the other names I used

When you come across a large camp eligable for DPA (or whatever the acronym is this tale)-ing, what do you do? What if there are more people there than just you waiting for the timer to click over allowing ownership?

Gyges: Honestly, the only things I DPA are nuissance buildings. I'm more interested in building than tearing down... and resource gathering is a big part of the game... and kinda fun for me. Except wood!

Gyges: So... um... the people there are welcome to DPA away? Really not my thing.

Silver: I don't come across camps for DPA. I've only tried to DPA my 2 most immediate neighbors and I don't like that people scour the map for stuff. The one neighbor I didn't know so well and lost a click race to get that stuff, which is when I figured out what to do about my more important neighbor with the public mines ... I pay for his account once every 3 months to keep his public mines public.

Gyges: (Personal opinion: if a retired player's camp is next to the camp of an active player, the polite thing to do is to work with them to see if they want the space, etc.. There's plenty to be had, but having a home to yourself is nice.)

Gyges: It's really not a bad solution, silver. I'm just too cheap to do it. Glad you aren't!

If the general consensus of the rest of the DPs were that that person should not be banned, but you felt strongly that they should, what would you do?

Gyges: I would be interested to see the situation that would prompt such a disagreement.

Silver: in an alternate dimension where I think things I don't think... I can't imagine what I'd do, since that wouldn't be me. I don't feel strongly people should be banned. I don't imagine I'd buck the DP consensus, though.

Gyges: I mean, yeah, pretty much what silver said. I... don't like banning people. I like this game. I like the people who play it. I want them to be able to keep playing.

Gyges: I mean, if in this alternate dimension Dreasimy, Avanya, kuupid and Augir are suddenly insane... and don't want to ban geodude who gets his hands on volatile explosives, blows up one chariot stop and vows to blow up another? (which is about where we'd have to be) In that case, Geodude gets a temp ban, while I wait for the real other DPs to escape their captivity and get back in the game.

Dreasimy: I've pretty much exhausted my questions since the candidates have answered so thoroughly they answered questions I didn't even get to. last call for questions from the peanut gallery :)

Dreasimy: (P.S. those of you using L2PBS right now, the mod had to step away for a few moments)

GHawkins: Ninjas or pirates?

Gyges: Man, we rock.

Silver: arr, any scuppering fool thinks he can hide on me ship will soon be decoratin' the end of me cutlass

Gyges: Pirates... ninjas are too "lone wolf" for me. I appreciate the comraderie of a wind-driven pirate ship.

I would like each of you to wrap up now and tell Egypt what they will get in a DP by voting for you. And if you do indeed want them to vote for you, please include why you would like them to.

Silver: I'm active, experienced, helpful, giving player with a public camp and who spends times helping others pass tests, and I'm doing really well on the monument-help track of leadership. And I like cats! But, many of these things can also be said of Gyges, my friend and future guildmate, so I'm happy no matter how this election goes.

Gyges: This election cracks me up. silver is probably my best friend in game... and was one of the first people I told that my wife and i are having a baby... so there really isn't a funnier person for me to be up against in this election. I'm personally thrilled that one of us will (hopefully) make it through.

Gyges: I'm active... don't do a lot of public works, but do a lot of public beer =) I'll do a bit of a festival regardless of who wins, though, I think... so don't take that into consideration too much. Hopefully I've made a good impact on many of you... and if so, great! It'd be fun to make it through this test. If not, I'll be very happy for silver to make it through as well =)

Gyges: Either way, we're going to get the aquaduct built, and I'll still supply the incense for his digs and stirs ;). That's it!

Dreasimy: Thanks for tuning in all, the log will be fluffed, folded, and laid out for you the next morning with your breakfast (on the wiki, formatted for easy reading.) Thank you candidates for giving us thoughtful answers and a debate with some interraction and banter between candidates, was nice :)

Dreasimy: Now, it is time for Dr Who!