Demi-Pharaoh/Bastet/DP Debates/April 2010 1

• 2010-04-18 19:59:39 Orishas: Hello Egypt
• 2010-04-18 19:59:55 Orishas: and Welcome to the first DP Debate, for our Second DP/
• 2010-04-18 20:00:11 Orishas: We will start by giving each of the candidates an opportunity to introduce themselves.
• 2010-04-18 20:00:30 Merit: Hi, everyone, I'm sure glad to be here today. I was talking to a friend the other day about whether or not I was tough enough to be a DP. I think I am but I wanted his opinion. He surprised me a little with the impact of his statement. "You are the nicest person I know in the game," he said, "but you know what's right and what's wrong. And you care about people. You'll do what's necessary."
• 2010-04-18 20:00:44 Merit: I agree with him. I'll do what is necessary.
• 2010-04-18 20:00:45 Merit: My name is Merit. I love fishing, flower growing, and beetle raising. I played for a while in T1, and then very briefly in T3. I had forgotten most of what I knew about the game, but my two months in this shard and the wonderful people I interact with have helped me remember. I may not have played the game as long as some others, but I know people and how to deal with them. And that is important in the position of Demi-Pharaoh.
• 2010-04-18 20:00:58 Merit: First, to ease your mind and get the burning question out of the way - would I ban? Yes, in a heartbeat. Why? Because I have been griefed myself, and I know the helpless feeling of having no recourse, of just having to let it happen.
• 2010-04-18 20:01:08 Merit: It's like being in a line at the bank and someone barges in ahead of you. What do you do? Tell him he's rude? Knock his block off and spend time in jail for assault? Call for the police?
• 2010-04-18 20:01:15 Merit: In the foregoing, you wouldn't call for the police because they would laugh at you. But in ATITD you can call the police, and that would be me. I will listen seriously to each person in the dispute and I will gather evidence. If it seemed a valid complaint and that the person acted deliberately as a griefer, I would ban him or her.
• 2010-04-18 20:01:27 Merit: Not lightly, but responsibly. Over the course of this debate, I hope to be able to tell you more about my experience and what I would do.
• 2010-04-18 20:03:27 Draim: Ahoy Egypt and I want to thank you all for the opportunity not only to reach this round but also to talk with you all. If anyone has questions for me that they do not feel were answered I sincerely hope that you will send me a /chat whether I am on or offline, I will make sure I respond ASAP. I am someone who truely loves to help out, I can frequently get more pleasure out of making things right so that others are happy then directly helping myself. I think the DP is someone who's job is in many ways misunderstood, they have a ban and perhaps other poweres if we give it to them but in the end that is not their main job.
• 2010-04-18 20:03:43 Draim: Their job is to help the community, help organize when needed, lead when needed and mediate when needed. The vast majority of the times when they are helpful would never require a ban even if they were unsuccesful. I hope that you will see me as someone who can do that for you but if you see another among us who is better you should be voting for them.
• 2010-04-18 20:04:23 Draim: I would also like to encourage anyone who is interested in the legal aspects of egypt to join the Egyptian Congress really a great idea that I think could help us tremendously (sp). I also have a law regarding an expansion of DP powers that I think would be benneficial for Egypt. If you have not seen it I can give you the link on the wiki or let you know who is holding it. Feel free to send me a chat whenever! :)
• 2010-04-18 20:04:32 Panda: Hi, everyone, I'm Panda, and I want YOU to elect me Demi-Pharoah.
• 2010-04-18 20:04:44 Panda: In RL I'm a game developer, and I was introduced to this game by a coworker who labelled it "the most interesting game you'll ever play". I'm a semi-casual player who played T4A for a while and quit when I got tired of feeding my camels. Now I have a small guild to back me up, so I intend to be here for a while!
• 2010-04-18 20:05:40 Panda: I think that a bit of drama is good for the game, but I do think that exploiting loopholes in the game design needs a punishment, and that the Demi-Pharoah position is there to do that job.
• 2010-04-18 20:06:10 Panda: I am happy to be here and hope for a fascinating debate. I'm always interested in questions and conversation, so feel free to /chat me anytime in-debate or out.
• 2010-04-18 20:06:27 Fluclo: Just a simple yes or no, no need to explain your reasons, just a simple yes or no to two questions. Knowing now what you know, would you have banned Geodude? And based on the allegation made by E-Com, would you ban Karl.
• 2010-04-18 20:06:35 Orishas: err oops
• 2010-04-18 20:06:45 Orishas: ignore that :p
• 2010-04-18 20:06:59 Daniels: For those that don't know me, I am Daniels. I live in Stillwater. I've played Tale off and on since T1, but only seriously played T3, T4A, and Bastet. Although I don't think it is necessary for a DP to be a leader, DP's should be deeply involved in the atitd community. I've taken leadership roles on Bastet as in a large mentoring guild that is focused on getting trial accounts initial help with the game (Mentors of Egypt). I've also run an Aqueduct guild on t4a, and plan to be involved with that test as well on Bastet.
• 2010-04-18 20:06:59 Daniels: I try to share my knowledge of the game; I've writen a blog article geared towards people that might enjoy the macro writing aspect of the game, and share my own macros. I've also contributed to the wiki, including writing an alloy guide and an alloy video tutorial that can be found on Youtube. I would like to become DP on Bastet because I love the game, and I want others to love the game too. As DP, it would be my goal to help keep our community working together to becoming the "perfect society".
• 2010-04-18 20:08:05 Xspell: Hi Everyone, In real life I live in the UK, In Egypt I live in Adn. I will keep it short and sweet. I would like to be the first Euro time zone DP, that doesn't own a mic and lives in the sticks! :)
• 2010-04-18 20:08:13 Xspell: I am a veteran having played ATITD from the first tale. However in this tale I have found that I am enjoying it more than any other. Due to this I am embracing all aspects of the game including the goal of becoming DP.
• 2010-04-18 20:08:32 Zandrox: We all know about the DP ban powere but what other responsibilites do you feel are taken on by DPs when they are elected
• 2010-04-18 20:09:40 Draim: to be honest I think the other responsibilities are more numerous (and important) then the ban ones.
• 2010-04-18 20:11:38 Draim: DPs end up being the ones that are looked to when their is a dispute, whether the person wants a ban or not (they very frequently do not). They are also looked to for other leadership, when new players have questions they are more likely to ask them if they here the title, older players will ask as more of a tiebreaker etc. In the end I think they need to be active and participatory members of the community for that very reason.
• 2010-04-18 20:11:59 Draim: *there is
• 2010-04-18 20:12:02 Panda: I think it's clear that by becoming Demi-Pharoah you are put in the spotlight; you're visible in the voting booth for every player for a week! For that reason I think a Demi-Pharoah should be approachable and friendly, available to new players. Someone any new player would like to have as a mentor.
• 2010-04-18 20:12:08 Panda: That said, I do not think the Demi-Pharoah's job is to babysit the playerbase. I would be available to talk and deal with the case of serious transgressions, but people should be able to handle little disputes on their own. We're all humans here, we all need to make an effort to get along :)
• 2010-04-18 20:13:02 Xspell: Orishas showed us a good example tonight, with the princess. To act in Egypts best interest and to represent us all whether it is in a roleplay scenario or in trying to resolve disputes.
• 2010-04-18 20:13:31 Merit: . I have spent years as a leader with the Americana Leadership College and the one thing I have found is that, when you make the people under you successful, then you can be as successful as your dreams will allow you. That's why the mentor system works so well in Egypt. Mentors make the noobs successful, which in turn makes the mentors successful. To verify this, check out the prizes awarded to good teachers in the leadership discipline. I want to do that. I want to help people feel secure so that they can go about their jobs in Egypt, confident that they are enabled to reap the rewards they have worked so hard for.
• 2010-04-18 20:14:10 Daniels: The primary job of a DP is to resolve conflicts, and bandaid relationships as much as possible. We are a community that depends on each other to get things done. This will become even more important as the tale goes on. Whether as a just a mediator or as a leader as well, the DP has to do their part in keeping players working together.
• 2010-04-18 20:14:49 tehm: Question for all: How do you decide whether bad behavior must be overlooked (or met with social penalty) or dealt with severely by a DP ban, when it would seem that any action you take in the game is "legal" because you can do it?
• 2010-04-18 20:16:47 Panda: There was a famous court decision about pornography in the U.S. where the judge said "I know it when I see it." I agree with that stance when it comes to bad behavior. If you are abusing the game design to intentionally wreck someone (or some group's) experience, you should be banned. If you are fighting over resources, well, that's the game design, you're supposed to do that. There's a line there, and I think people can tell when they've crossed it.
• 2010-04-18 20:19:22 Xspell: Being able to do something in game does not make it morally ok to do so. When a players actions starts to overstep common law boundaries (such as stealing) then the majority of people know that something is wrong and should be stopped and maybe repremanded for. That is when i would help resolve the problem.
• 2010-04-18 20:19:46 Daniels: I'll try to answer this question accurately. The measurement that I use is not what an action is, but the intent behind the action. If the action was an accident, its our nature to forgive. If however the action is intended to cause grief, then action must be taken to resolve the situation. If there is no other way to stop a griefer from continuing their actions, then a ban may be necessary. To answer your question, for me it is a scale of intention, and harm done to the victim of the action.
• 2010-04-18 20:20:18 Merit: Some might think from my opening statements I would be too quick to ban. In my years as a paralegal in civil law, real estate, and wills, I was trained to search out the facts and make sure I had all of them before drawing up the documents. I will carry this experience into my role as DP. I am an elder in 5 guilds. I think the reason this is so is that people trust me and know that I will act in the best interests of the people. END
• 2010-04-18 20:20:43 Draim: it is my opinion that in this game the argument that an action is "legal" because you can do it is BS. Basically everything is "legal" and if we were to follow that thought process we would have no need for DPs (and would scare people off very quickly in my opinion)
• 2010-04-18 20:20:53 Draim: overlooked is often totally inadequate but a social penalty can often be much more beneficial. As panda said if they are intentionally trying to wreck someone it is going to come to a harsher penalty (such as a perm ban) much quicker. However the vast majority of cases are people who all want to play the game, those are much more difficult.
• 2010-04-18 20:21:06 Draim: In those cases while one (or both/all) parties may feel that they have been "griefed" or attacked they desire to play the game, these people can usually be worked with and if you talk to them and figure out the problem it is rarely one person's fault.
• 2010-04-18 20:21:24 Draim: because of that in the end you want to try and work with people, harsher penalties (which in my mind should often start with a temporary ban before a permenant one) should only come when you were unable to work with them. I stand by one very important rule (in my mind):
• 2010-04-18 20:21:39 Draim: A ban is for prevention, not punishment. Punishment for punishment's sake helps nothing
• 2010-04-18 20:21:55 Onafi: Do you favor Sami or Wahim? Would you ever use your power to back the efforts of one or the other?
• 2010-04-18 20:23:32 Daniels: I favor neither. I believe in friendly competition. Sami and Wahim are meant to be two extremes. That said, you can probably predict that I wouldn't back either of them. :)
• 2010-04-18 20:23:52 Panda: I like this question. :)
• 2010-04-18 20:23:54 Panda: I come down on Wahim's side. Conflict is good for people. The game is a million times less interesting without heroes and villians, without rivals to compete with.
• 2010-04-18 20:24:13 Panda: My coworker came into work one day upset at (of all people) Xspell. "He mined our tin! I'm so stupid, I knew I should have put down more mines but I went to bed thinking it would be there tomorrow."
• 2010-04-18 20:24:29 Panda: I think that was a great moment in the game.
• 2010-04-18 20:25:02 Panda: And I think we should encourage those kinds of stories!
• 2010-04-18 20:25:09 Xspell: I favour Sami personally. Although Wahim does like to entice conflict and drama which does make the game more entertaining. I wouldnt dream of using DP powers to favour one over the other.
• 2010-04-18 20:25:24 Xspell: lol that is the first I had heard of that Panda :)
• 2010-04-18 20:25:32 Merit: I'm with Daniels on this one. I have no preferences on either Sami or Wahim. I think it is an interesting twist to the storyline and adds to the game, but it is nothing for me to get emotionally involved in.
• 2010-04-18 20:25:46 Draim: There is a reason their is both, siding with one "side" does not allow us the benefits of incorporating them both. If you mean would I use my influence? not on purpose, but I would not shy from saying my own thoughts on whatever matter was before us at the time.
• 2010-04-18 20:26:05 Neone: To all: i know each of you want to be the next DP. But if you had to pick one of your competents as DP, who would it be? And what of the key issus they are working on would you like to see happen or work on your self too?
• 2010-04-18 20:27:33 Orishas: ((And as a side note we're running low on questions))
• 2010-04-18 20:28:25 Xspell: I would pick Draim. I was lucky enough to be in the second round with him on the last ballot. Unfortunately I was called away and unable to make my vote to put him through then. If I had done we wouldn't have him as competition now :)
• 2010-04-18 20:28:45 Merit: Although all the competitors seem competent and knowledgeable, I think I would vote for Daniels. I like his laid-back approach and his enthusiasm for being a part of the community and his role in just helping because he wants to. He seems capable of getting the job done, but his is not a shotgun technique.
• 2010-04-18 20:29:06 Draim: This is slightly unfair because I do not know all the other candidates platforms equally but I would likely have to choose Daniels. I have had him in 2 rounds now (he was in my 2nd round last election and in my alt's first round this election)
• 2010-04-18 20:29:34 Panda: I have to admit that I do not know my competitors that well. I would probably pick Xspell because we both had the courage to go live in a region with no chariot, and trust to our own skills and ability to work with the game design to survive and keep up.
• 2010-04-18 20:29:48 Panda: Although perhaps that is a bad choice, since I would then be competing for resources with someone who can ban me :)
• 2010-04-18 20:30:10 Draim: While we do not agree on everything I know for a fact he means to do exactly what he says, the best thing he can for Egypt. We are also kindred spirits I think on alot of things, both our desire to help out new players and our love of things like the aqueduct test ;) I think he would be the closest to my own thoughts (though we still need to get him on the Egyptian Congress!)
• 2010-04-18 20:30:44 Panda: Regardless of what happens this election, I'd like to help Xspell in his quest to make Adn beautiful and encourage the spread of egyptian population away from the downtowns in SA and Stillwater.
• 2010-04-18 20:30:50 Panda: (Downtown SA makes my computer sad, I get around 5fps there!)
• 2010-04-18 20:31:05 Daniels: I would support Xspell. I think Xspell is very well-rounded, and having a DP for the Euro timezone would be a huge benefit for our community at this time. I think that the Euro section of our community is greatly under represented here on Bastet. That said, I respect Draim a lot. I am not sure how he well he handles people and conflict, but he talks a good game and is sharp. :)
• 2010-04-18 20:31:31 Mercille: Would you support the right to regions to determine their own play styles and, if so, how woudl you deal with others trying to force them into something different?
• 2010-04-18 20:34:07 Merit: As long as the players were not breaking any of the laws of Egypt and as long as they were not trying to grief people under the guise of "anything goes," then I would support that right. If other players in the region tried to force them into a mould, I would talk with them first, then issue warnings, then temporary bans, then, if needed, permabans.
• 2010-04-18 20:35:38 Draim: hmm, a tough question for many reasons
• 2010-04-18 20:35:41 Draim: In regards to would I support that right, in general I would. There are many ways to play this game and forceing people to play otherwise rarely helps them or us in the longrun.
• 2010-04-18 20:36:25 Draim: that being said I fear that a "region decision" would end up hurting those within the region who had not decided that
• 2010-04-18 20:37:24 Draim: if this came up I would try to mediate and find a middle ground, it is possible that the best move would be for the player to leave the region but a player trying to force the region to "conform" to their wishes is just as bad as a region who is trying to force the player to "conform" to theirs. (with obvious exceptions)
• 2010-04-18 20:37:29 Draim: end
• 2010-04-18 20:37:40 Panda: Absolutely! I thought that was missing from T4A. Unfortnately, I don't know that the Demi-Pharoah has a lot of control here. I think that what is really needed are some good laws giving power to regional leaders; things like the ability to create local laws about property and conduct and some power to enforce when those laws are violated.
• 2010-04-18 20:37:54 Panda: I would be active in encouraging the development of those laws and campaigning for their success at the ballot.
• 2010-04-18 20:38:03 Panda: I think that giving the regions more of a unique flavor would help the game in general by allowing people to move to where they feel most welcome and can play with people who have similar values to themselves.
• 2010-04-18 20:38:30 Daniels: I like that question, Mercille! I know where you are coming from here. Of the three major regions (not to leave out the others, but for the sake of being brief), SA, SW, and Saqq are all very different communities. I recognize that fact, and it interests me a lot actually. On an inter-regional basis, I think that most of the time things like these might settle themselves. You can never force someone to play your way in this game. It doesn't work like that. If I was asked or felt it necessary to get involved, I would simply explain this fact to the pressuing side. You can't blame people for playing a certain way, and you can't make people play how you you want them to. Instead, I would suggest that one side offer to work together towards a common goal.
• 2010-04-18 20:39:04 Xspell: If i understand the question properly, I think each region does have its own play style. The type of people that want to hurry through research and play fast tend to head for the cities (like SA) solo and csual players on the other hand may find themselves drawn further out into other regions.
• 2010-04-18 20:39:19 Merit: I actually have more to say - the game is for the creativity of players. Just because something has done things that way since T1 is no reason that new things can't be tried or that various player styles can't be accommodated. The idea that the "good old boys" are always right is, is my opinion wrong. Noobs are people too and they are not noobs in RL, just in the game. Some of these noobs have awesome RL experiences that will make the game more challenging, more exciting, more playable
• 2010-04-18 20:39:54 Neone: To all: what posibilities are opened by becoming dp that your planing to use ?
• 2010-04-18 20:42:45 Draim: well I guess I see that in 2 ways: I don't think there is anything I would do as DP that I wouldn't be trying to do if I wasn't DP, I don't intend to do anything "if I get elected" or vica-versa. It is very possible I will be able to get more done because I am DP and perhaps people will listen to me more (though to be honest I don't feel I've had that problem as yet, they may not agree but I've never really had anyone not listen)
• 2010-04-18 20:44:13 Draim: I would want to encourage more frequent debate about what we want or do not want (though we are much better at that then I remember from T3) and I think the Congress idea is a great one. I would like to set up some sort of "constitution" (stolen form Usi) that we could put on the ballot as a (not coded) vote to get something that we can all agree to as more bedrock principles
• 2010-04-18 20:44:33 Draim: but again, I would be trying to do that regardless
• 2010-04-18 20:44:54 Panda: I am going to sell all my bans for mentorship decrees.
• 2010-04-18 20:44:58 Panda: Oops, didn't mean to type that out loud! :)
• 2010-04-18 20:45:03 Panda: OK, seriously, I don't expect my game to change much if I become Demi-Pharoah. I'll get more random chats, which will be fun. I'll probably have people seek me out for advice on laws, which I am looking forward to.
• 2010-04-18 20:45:37 Panda: But my minute-to-minute gameplay will likely not change much: collect stuff, build stuff, chat with interesting people. That's what I want out of the game anyways!
• 2010-04-18 20:45:51 Daniels: I have to admit, I am a bit of a socialite. I look forward to joining more social guilds, and getting to know more people. I am already in at least one major guild in the three large regions, but I want to join a guild or two in Meroe, Khnum, Adn, and Sanai. I think that meeting more players is an avenue to work with more players, and I enjoy doing that when I can. :)
• 2010-04-18 20:46:11 Xspell: One of the biggest things that I think will benefit Egypt is that by voting for me you will have a Euro time zone DP. When Orishas has to sleep, and I heard he does actually sleep, then I will be available.
• 2010-04-18 20:46:25 Xspell: Also the fact that as DP I will be 'better known' will enable me to achieve my goal of helping the people of Egypt more as I have been doing in and around Adn so far.
• 2010-04-18 20:46:35 Draim: Lies!!! he does not sleep!
• 2010-04-18 20:46:49 Merit: To me the exciting part of the DP position is the opportunity to meet and interact with a whole bunch of people. It's hard to do it in just one region, but DP will allow me to travel freely and help people all over Egypt. Also the thought that I can do more good and help keep things in balance is a compelling bonus.
• 2010-04-18 20:47:20 tehm: Question for all: The Egyptian Congress guild is supposed to include a subset of self-nominated "senators" to represent the regions and determine policy for all of Egypt - in some cases by telling Egypt how it is, and in some cases by proposing laws. How do you feel about this?
• 2010-04-18 20:50:04 Merit: This is the first time I have heard of this subset, and I am a member of the Egyptian Congress. If this is in fact that case, then I would be opposed. Self-nominated anything is not good for a democracy. The idea is not bad, but I would hope that it would be done by elections in the regions themselves. I don't believe anyone except Teppy has the right to "tell Egypt how it is." So this idea would have to be greatly modified to a more democratic form before I would support it.
• 2010-04-18 20:50:36 Draim: I don't totally understand your comment on "telling egypt how it is" I like the idea, I think having a place where we can hash out ideas amongst those interested ( I know some people get frustrated by the occasional debates that break out in B!) is good
• 2010-04-18 20:51:19 Draim: I think having a place where people who are interested can debate proposed laws and thoughts for the community can be hugely benneficial. That being said I do not think they (at least at the moment) are able to "tell egypt how it is" If they come up with thoughts as a group I think bringing them to egypt is important. I had a think in one of my rounds about how to set up a vote outside of a normal ballot
• 2010-04-18 20:51:46 Draim: (my idea was private chests around egypt where people could put named chits in Yes/No chests)
• 2010-04-18 20:52:13 Draim: I think things like that will be important if we want to have something that is more "binding" even if not coded as a law
• 2010-04-18 20:52:51 tehm: clarification - when Egyptian Congress was created and advertised on B! it was stated as a guild where law would be established. After a bit of B! arguing SOME said "perhaps we will just refine laws to propose" but this is afaik still not the stated purpose of the guild; but rather to establish Egyptian policy.
• 2010-04-18 20:53:01 Daniels: I am not familiar with the details of this Egyptian Congress proposal, but it sounds a little impractical to me. However I may be skeptical, but I am not opposed to trying it. I don't think that the Congress should be given any particular power that it wouldn't otherwise have now. The reason I say this is that sense "senators" are self-nominated, they do not represent Egypt. They still need to represent Egypt in some waythough, and if they have no in-game power, all the power thatthey do have will come from the backing of the community itself. This also solves the problem of "what if the Congress tries to enforce something against the will of the people". Without the backing of the community, it shouldn't be allowed to do that.
• 2010-04-18 20:53:37 Panda: I'm not currently a member of EC. I think that if EC is trying to claim any real power that isn't backed up by passed laws, they are kind of doomed to fail from the start :) If the guild is just people who are interested in the legal development of Egypt, then I am for it--but they will have to remember as does everyone else that the People's Democracy of Egypt is in charge, and the ballot box is a fickle master :)
• 2010-04-18 20:54:02 Xspell: I think that a ruling Senate will be very controversial. However if they still have to go through the motions of passing a law then ultimately the votes on the law will be down to the people anyway. Kind of negating the senates power except for their role as a think tank for laws.
• 2010-04-18 20:54:21 Usi: Follow up on tehms question: So do you see the Congress more as A. a ruling class, or B. as a think tank that is represented by ppl from all over Egypt to come up with sensible ideas and laws? Short answers welcome. :)
• 2010-04-18 20:54:45 Daniels: Think tank only please. :)
• 2010-04-18 20:55:22 Merit: As supported by all the DPs, A won't work - think-tank it is :)
• 2010-04-18 20:55:27 Panda: Currently B. I think that passing a law that makes it into A is interesting and a good idea, but at that point I would want members to be elected by players in their home region.
• 2010-04-18 20:55:39 Xspell: I answered Usi's question with my answer to tehm. It will just be a think tank.
• 2010-04-18 20:56:04 Draim: B, if the community wants a ruling class we can talk about it but not what I think it is set up for or should be atm
• 2010-04-18 20:56:26 Usi: Thanks for the short answers :)
• 2010-04-18 20:56:28 TheSpy: talking about play style : what is your opinion regarding obelisk's queues and people who don't follow this unofficial 'rule' ?
• 2010-04-18 20:59:39 Xspell: Oby queues are fine if a region in whole decides that is what they want to do and we still see regions oby queues working. I do wonder as someone suggested before, i can't recall who. that maybe 2 or 3 regions should be nominated as queued regions and all others fair game for competitive building.
• 2010-04-18 21:00:10 Merit: Since it is not a law of Egypt, there is no way to enforce that rule. However, if a community decides to have a queue and someone decides to skip the queue, that someone will have to deal with the consequences, which, in some cases, is a moratorium by the pro-queue community. That is not against the rules either. It is very difficult to play this game without the help of other people. I have seen this happen in Saqq with some unhappy consequences on both sides.
• 2010-04-18 21:00:37 Draim: lawl obelisk's queues: Do I think using them is a problem? no I think finding ways such as queues to help is part of the game (my favorite line "The whole game is a harmony test")
• 2010-04-18 21:00:54 Draim: that being said, people who decide to build over those queues are also part of the game (and so is the social fallout for those who do, which is in no way universal as many have seen)
• 2010-04-18 21:01:30 Draim: If people start running around building giant obelisks just to get back at someone (/cough) then yes that starts to become something that can be a problem (starts) but just deciding not to honor the queue is as much a part of the test as deciding to have a queue (prisoners dillema and all, it is better for everyone as a whole to have a queue and it is better for the individual to ignore the queue if they can get away with it, it is worse for all if everyone decides to ignore the queue and makes it a giant building competion)
• 2010-04-18 21:01:54 Draim: but of course that is generally what happens (just as the prisioners dillema says it would :( ) :)
• 2010-04-18 21:02:26 Panda: The Test of the Obelisk is just that, a Test with a capital "T". Much of what makes this game interesting is the social/personal advancement trade-offs--you can make it harder for everyone else to get a short term advantage. Is it worth the loss of respect and aid of your community for that short-term gain?
• 2010-04-18 21:02:34 Panda: So I see The Queue as a social construction to try to game the test, and it's great if they are successful at doing so, but there's also something to be said for gaming the test in the other way, as an auction.
• 2010-04-18 21:02:44 Panda: All that said, I was extremely upset by Geodude's abuse of the flaw in the obelisk test that allowed him to destroy the queue in four regions simultaneously. If he wanted to build a 100 high obelisk, that's great for him. But to do so in four regions without the investment expected to do so seemed like a clear abuse to me.
• 2010-04-18 21:03:16 Panda: As Draim says, it is a prisoner's dilemma, as is much of Egypt, but in the repeated prisoner's dilemma there are not many strategies that eat Tit for Tat. So if someone wants to break your social obelisk queue, just make sure you surround their towers with your own during the tower test so that they can suffer in that way :)
• 2010-04-18 21:03:47 Daniels: Tthere are arguments from both sides, and they are both legitimate, therefore I do not think it is normally a DP's job to get involved in Obelisk wars. Obelisk queues are polite, and benefit the most people. The other side says that the test was designed to be a competition, that being the first to put your name on a list is unfair, and that there is no obligation for people to respect queues. Both sides are entitled to their opinions on the matter, and a DP should only get involved if it bleeds over into actual griefing.
• 2010-04-18 21:04:14 Usi: Question to all: It seems that the ppl of Egypt are divided in 2 groups. One wants DP's just to be cops and mere holderes of the ban-stick. Others look towards DP's as more of a leader and inspirator. Which one of those do you see yourself as, and why?
• 2010-04-18 21:06:33 Merit: I don't think to be a good cop, one can merely stand by until called. Without involvement in the community and interaction with the people, I wouldn't really know what's going on. And I wouldn't have a chance to see people in action, what the facts are, and how to best solve "cop-type" problems when they arise. So I can't definitively answer your question with A or B. I do believe that the DP position is primarily a cop position but leadership and involvement are all a part of that.
• 2010-04-18 21:07:08 Draim: I think i've said this a couple times so you probably know my answer (and how important I see it ;) ) but I see myself as more of the leader/inspirator side. A cop osm
• 2010-04-18 21:07:35 Draim: *oops, a cop isn't as useful in my opinion if they are just "holders of the ban stick" and it is better when they are able to work things out. The ban stick has been used so rarely for a reason, it is rarely needed, but trying to find someone who can help be that 3rd party is needed much more often
• 2010-04-18 21:08:17 Draim: and while of course that 3rd party could be anyone, having people who have made it known they are ok at being it is important in my mind
• 2010-04-18 21:09:10 Draim: there is also something to be said about the election, a DP election is really the only way that you get any sort of "community mandate" to try and work things out and I think people prefer to deal with that a little. The cop side is important, but in my mind useless without the other side.
• 2010-04-18 21:09:25 Panda: Hm, let me turn your question around, Usi. I think the same qualities that give someone the ability to win the Demi-Pharoah election are the ones that make that person into a good leader.
• 2010-04-18 21:09:31 Panda: So does it matter if the DP's role is just to be a cop? A good leader will be a good leader regardless of any title they have or do not have.
• 2010-04-18 21:09:42 Daniels: As I have said before, I don't think DP's need to be leaders, but they need to be involved in the community in some form or another. Simply being a cop with a banstick creates short-sighteness. Myself in particular, I see myself as an occasional leader when needed or asked, but also someone that is involved with the community as much as I can be.
• 2010-04-18 21:09:57 Xspell: I see myself as someone that is responsible and diplomatic not a ruler as such. Therfore an inspirator and peacekeeper at times when needed is my main goal.
• 2010-04-18 21:10:21 tehm: It is important as a DP to show command over others. At time you can do this with cordial discussion, but at times you must show your tough side. Please show us your mean face.
• 2010-04-18 21:14:12 Draim:
• 2010-04-18 21:14:50 Draim: damn it's not a link :(, more seriously however while I don't like to be "mean" It is sometimes neccesary at least in the view of others
• 2010-04-18 21:15:34 tehm: as a follow up, I hope none of you are injuring yourselves in order to build up your anger.
• 2010-04-18 21:16:17 Draim: I will never try to "yell" but I will have no problem coming out and saying "you are being an ass" or exactly what I see as the problem and it is quite likely that will at times seem mean, and I'm ok with that
• 2010-04-18 21:16:23 Panda: OK, I am probably going to regret taking your question at face value, but you asked for it!
• 2010-04-18 21:16:29 Panda: tehm, what the hell do you think you're doing? You're always running around Egypt, pestering newbies for acro moves. Maybe if you took the time to actually stop and build something, people wouldn't think you were such a twat!
• 2010-04-18 21:16:38 Panda: Also: >:-Z
• 2010-04-18 21:16:42 Panda: (Note: the views expressed herein are not the actual views of Panda, Sixam, Camel Sands, Still Waters Run Deep, Adn, or any person living or dead)
• 2010-04-18 21:17:19 Draim: oh I'm sure we can find someone ;)
• 2010-04-18 21:17:21 Daniels: "You've griefed this person unjustifiably 2 times now. I understand that you have issues with this person, but your actions are just not justified. I've made an obligation to Egypt to protect them, and if you do not tear down your buildings I will be forced to ban you. I really *do not* want to ban you, so please think about this. I'll give you a couple of days to cool down and think." And believe me, if I had to, I would.
• 2010-04-18 21:17:35 Daniels: lmao Panda
• 2010-04-18 21:17:42 Xspell: Vote for me tehm. Cos if you don't and I get in you will be the first person I ban!
• 2010-04-18 21:17:45 Xspell: was that mean or purely threatening? :P
• 2010-04-18 21:17:49 Merit: I have made grown men quiver, and not with lust. Ask XacVI or my RL 6'4" 280 lb. husband. I don't believe, in order to show authority over others you need to swear and be forceful or brutish. You need to be in command of yourself. And I usually am. I am implacable when it comes down to what is right and what is wrong. Like that judge in Panda's anecdote, I know what is wrong when I see it. And I can't be budged, unless someone can show me how I am off the mark.
• 2010-04-18 21:17:57 Merit: Then I will investigate again and on the odd occasion have reversed my decision. Ask red, Silva and Rucian about that one - oh yeah and Ascii. Through all of my firmness and implacability, I strive to be fair. I think people know that about me and will listen to me even when they are the brunt of the accusations. I have had that happen a number of time.
• 2010-04-18 21:18:01 Merit: So yeah, I am tough enough. And I WILL do what is necessary.
• 2010-04-18 21:18:20 Izzy: for all: what are your views on profanity in public channels?
• 2010-04-18 21:18:29 Orishas: Just a couple more questions here
• 2010-04-18 21:18:47 Draim: http://captionsplash.mylifetime.com/captions/mean-cat-face
• 2010-04-18 21:22:03 Panda: Profanity for profanity's sake is childish and stupid. But sometimes people get angry, and swearing helps get the point across about how upset you really are. I think Egypt is a place for adults, unlike many MMOs, so I am not against profanity on principle. Besides, using it unnecessarily just lets people know how classy (or not) you really are.
• 2010-04-18 21:22:25 Merit: I am not opposed to profanity, but I think people should be a little circumspect on public channels. Although I don't believe many young children play ATITD, if any, there may be children of players who watch the screens. I know some kids gather grass for their mom's camels :P So I would caution people about what they say. Damn and crap aren't even swear words in my opinion. But going off with some of the more vulgar profanity would be possibly injurious to young eyes and upset young parents (and old ones too :P)
• 2010-04-18 21:22:43 Xspell: I am of the opinion that all the public channels are modded to prevent profanity for a good reason. People myself included do have kids that help out and play etc from time to time therefore we must keep it censored.
• 2010-04-18 21:22:55 Xspell: In guild chat etc with consent then anything goes imo.
• 2010-04-18 21:23:03 Xspell: If the kids want profanity let them talk to their mates on facebook, lets keep Egypt clean :)
• 2010-04-18 21:23:15 Daniels: Izzy, I believe that those of us who are more sensative should be respected, at least when asked to. However, in an unmoderated public channel, the offended is free to leave if others will not respect your wishes for not using bad language. Using bad language doesn't make someone a bad person, but using it despite requests not to means that they are probably not someone you want to be around anyway. That said, we are a game for adults, and I don't believe in censorship.
• 2010-04-18 21:23:46 Izzy: clarification: not all "public" channels are moderated regional chats are public but not modded
• 2010-04-18 21:26:00 Orishas: Small delay here, deleted post
• 2010-04-18 21:26:54 Draim: I think in general it should be refrained from and if someone asks you to step back then that should be honored. I do not think it is "bad" for it to get through on occasion but if someone is just swearing up a pirate's storm then they need to be asked to calm themselves down and if they won't it may be time to start talking to them because they obviously have little concern for others
• 2010-04-18 21:27:32 Neone: i think you all heard of the big Antimony problem, where someone placed a mine where someone used alot of time dowsing with cooking and herb stacked to be able to see it. How would you (did you, talked a bit about it with daniels in my round but im from eu so didnt have much time to chat with him about it) handle the matter ?
• 2010-04-18 21:29:44 Merit: I understand there were three people involved in this griefing incident. I further understand that they used up all the space and did not let the dowser build even one mine or give her one mine there.
• 2010-04-18 21:30:15 Merit: That is totally unacceptable. I would first, as is my practice, ascertain the facts of the case. Then, as I decided when I heard the story, after deciding they were griefers and thieves, I would tell the three of them to pick one of their number to be permanently banned. The other two would be warned that they were on a close watch and would follow, if they ever did that again.
• 2010-04-18 21:31:56 Xspell: From what I understand of the issue, the person who dowsed did give away the location before putting down mines whether on purpose or not. I personally would have tried to resolve it by asking the mine builders to be considerate of the work that was done in finding the location and let the dowser have a percentage of the ore blob.
• 2010-04-18 21:32:47 Panda: So, Neone says the one who was dowsing used sand to map out the area. I would say that's an intelligence failure and their mistake, and they will know better next time. On the other hand, if someone is following you while you are dowsing and won't leave despite your attempts to deal with it, that is something that might need intervention.
• 2010-04-18 21:32:52 Xspell: The mine layers should certainly be named and shamed at the least if they do not respond in kindness.
• 2010-04-18 21:33:04 Panda: (and by intelligence failure, I do not mean the doswer was stupid, but rather that they gave away their information)
• 2010-04-18 21:33:24 Draim: To be honest I logged on in the middle of it and got slightly confused (walked into alot of Us Vs. Them talk flying around and was trying to figure out what actually happened) at the time I started talking to those in SA who were involved but it ended up being (in my mind at least) fairly well resolved by Daniels who was able to talk to a couple of those involved and come to an agreement that fairly quickly got people fairly happy (and SWRD a mine). I will say this though and people may not like it: I do not see it as a greifing instance, a problem that needed to be addresed yes, griefing no
• 2010-04-18 21:34:30 Draim: I also think from everyone I talked to that not all the facts were really out in the open in the end (from either side) and I think if it had been pursued further we would have needed to do that (though I'm not sure it needed to be and I'm glad it ended how it did)
• 2010-04-18 21:34:56 Merit: I understand that they followed her at first without her knowledge. By the time she had everything laid out, it was too late. I don't think she announced the location or gave it away.
• 2010-04-18 21:35:02 Xspell: I agree I did not see it as griefing.
• 2010-04-18 21:35:04 Daniels: Thank you for that question, Neone. I am quite proud of my role in this particular situation. While it couldn't have been prevented by a DP beause no one talked about it until it happened, I was able to repair the relationship of one of these people with the Stillwater Research guild, and at the same time get the Stillwater Research guild an Antimony mine of their own. I am sure ModeSix can back my story up. The end result, while not as perfect as it could be, was one person who really didn't mean to do anything wrong, kept access to the mine that they blind sank, and the Research guild (which he was a member of, but being a non-english speaker he was confused about what was actually happening), was able to continue on with research. All in all, life went on, and Stillwater Research is still going strong. As far as the acts themselves, I think that if someone is dowsing for a metal that is holding back Egypt, you should respect that dowser... a lot. Shame on those that didn't.
• 2010-04-18 21:35:38 Daniels: But you are right, Draim, it was not griefing in my sense of the word either.
• 2010-04-18 21:35:55 Orishas: Ok - one final question: And then a chance for closing statements
• 2010-04-18 21:36:06 Orishas: Don't hold back because Im modding :)
• 2010-04-18 21:36:08 Ascii: What will differentiate you from DP than what Orishas already brings to the table?
• 2010-04-18 21:41:08 Xspell: I wouldn't want to differentiate myself from what Orishas is doing. So far he seems to be doing a great job and if I can match that then I will be happy. Except I will be doing the job while he sleeps giving Egypt a round the clock DP.
• 2010-04-18 21:41:25 Panda: I think Orishas represents the "committed player" faction quite well. I don't think I ever see him not online. I do think that having the perspective of a more casual player would be good and I bring that with me.
• 2010-04-18 21:41:35 Panda: I don't think that Egypt is in any danger of running out of Demi-Pharoahs, so having players who are always online may not be needed. There's going to be one more every month from now until the end of the telling in a year or two!
• 2010-04-18 21:43:39 Merit: Orishas is a heckuva guy and a good DP in my opinion. I think in some cases, he is a little too nice. If I am elected DP, I will use temp ban more often. Sometimes it can act as a good deterrent to future griefing. There is a case where someone is deliberately stalking and harassing some people, forcing them to move to another place. The stalker has found them and is messing up their new location the same way as before. I would have banned her the first time. She stated openly that she was doing what she did in order to right some wrongs. No acceptable.
• 2010-04-18 21:43:57 Daniels: From what I have seen, and I respect and like Orishasa lot, I think I might be a little more strict than he is. I find that the role of the DP is to protect Egyptians. There is nothing worse than griefing because it can lead to the griefed party to the quit the game. I would rather use a ban than see that happen, if there was no other resolution. Many have heard about the recent griefing against Robkin. Now, I cannot say whether I would use a ban or not becauseI have yet to talk to anyone involved, but my gut feeling is that Orishas may have been in the right in banning the person griefing Rob. Fromm what I understand, this person has done it again!
• 2010-04-18 21:45:59 Draim: I'll admit I don't really like questions like that but :) I'm a different person from Ori, I know we on occasion have different thoughts (and neither has had a problem saying so) . I have a feeling I'll be a bit more.... "vocal" publically and being so a bit quicker then Ori usually is.
• 2010-04-18 21:46:50 Orishas: I'll have a follow up question for Merit/Daniels: The incident you both bring up has happened "again" in the last 48 hours -- the offender has only been online for a culmative 2 hours and has not had any communication with the DP or other parties. You mentioned 'getting more information' but if you were not able to contact the offender would you ban within 48 hours?
• 2010-04-18 21:47:03 Orishas: short answer is fine
• 2010-04-18 21:47:50 Merit: Yes, because I was able to have more inside information than perhaps you had, Ori.
• 2010-04-18 21:48:08 Merit: I believe she is deliberately avoiding you. That also is unacceptable.
• 2010-04-18 21:49:54 Daniels: Orishas, hopefully not without contacting the person first. I would try and get them to tear their stuff down at least when they log back on. If my offline message is avoided completely though, then I may not have a choice.
• 2010-04-18 21:50:58 Orishas: OK - now everyone will be giving a closing statement
• 2010-04-18 21:51:29 Orishas: and then Ill welcome opinions from the public about the situation Daniels/Merit brought up
• 2010-04-18 21:53:02 Panda: Thank you all for your questions and your time. I hope I've entertained, been interesting, and also gave you an idea of who I am. PLEASE do not hesitate to /chat with me, I look forward to talking to each and every one of you if you have the time.
• 2010-04-18 21:53:13 Panda: I hope to win, and I hope to never need to use the powers I gain by doing so. But I am willing to do so if necessary.
• 2010-04-18 21:53:57 Panda: Enjoy your day, and may all the herbs you find be rare :)
• 2010-04-18 21:54:08 Daniels: Thank you Orishas/B! for taking the time to host this, and thanks for some of those really good questions. Good luck to the other candidates, and don't forget to vote! Please chat me if you have unanswered questions or are looking for a good time.
• 2010-04-18 21:54:34 Xspell: Thank you everyone for listening in. I am not a politician by any means I am a decent law abiding citizen from the sticks that would love to help Egypt more by becoming DP. I am loving playing this shard and even if I am not made DP then I will endeavour to carry on helping where I can, but a vote for me will ultimately be more beneficial to you all!
• 2010-04-18 21:55:29 Merit: Well, I had my opening statement prepared, but I don't have a closing one. So I'll just talk from my heart. My whole thrust my entire life has been to be of service to people. Not a servant, doing what people can do for themselves, but real service to help them overcome difficulties and enjoy life more. I have tried to do this in game as well. Generally because people trust me and like me, I have been able to do it well in my life and so far in this game.
• 2010-04-18 21:55:39 Merit: I have been griefed in other games and in my business where hackers ruined the one medium I had to conduct my business online. It was heartbreaking. I have seen friends in this game be griefed and how it has affected their enjoyment of the game and ultimately their marriage.
• 2010-04-18 21:56:05 Merit: I dont' like seeing things like that. I don't believe I will be too quick to ban, but I will be fair and I will do what is necessary.
• 2010-04-18 21:56:10 Merit: As for leadership, I mostly lead by example. I do whatever needs doing, whether it's pulling grass or feeding sheep or mining.
• 2010-04-18 21:56:26 Merit: I'm with a research guild and believe me there is a whole lot to do. I do it and people like it.
• 2010-04-18 21:56:40 Merit: It makes them feel good about what they are doing.
• 2010-04-18 21:57:11 Merit: I probably won't step out in front and lead, but I'll work with you and we'll have a lot of fun. Especially when the griefers and the thieves aren't as able to wreak the havoc they do.
• 2010-04-18 21:57:43 Merit: Thanks for listening to me, and if you feel I can be of service to you, then please vote for me. If not, then you have a wide selection of worthy candidates. Have a great day :)
• 2010-04-18 21:57:52 Draim: Aye, Thank you all for listening (I know these can drag on) I hope it has helped you as you decide who to vote for and if you have questions or concerns about anything I said (or any question not answered) please please please send me a /chat even if you don't want a response from me and just want to comment. I hope I've proven myself to you but if not make sure you weigh the sides and pick the one you feel is best for egypt! Apathy is death :)