Talk:Guilds/SADC

Please post your comments below so we can begin to determine how to set things up.

Cooperative Structure

How should this thing be structured?

Option 1:

Divide up the cost of building the well into a certain number of equal parts or shares then each member can buy in for a certain number of shares and provide the associated materials. All petroleum extracted from the well will then be divided up equally among all shares, so each member will get an amount proportionate to their shares.

Pros:

• This seems like the fairest way to structure things so everyone basically gets a return proportionate to what they put in.
• This will provide an incentive for people to come up with the materials quickly so they can get maximum ownership.

Cons:

• It will be difficult to police this process. Everyone who extracts petroleum from the well will be on the honor system that it will go into the guild coffers to be distributed.
• This approach only takes into account the initial startup cost in determining who gets how much. It does not take into account who is putting forth the effort to actually operate the well.

Comments:

• This option assumes that only members will do the pumping. This is probably not practical. --Hepnezr

Option 2:

Basically have a free-for-all. All members of the guild contribute what they can and when we have enough resources we build the well. All members can use the well and keep what they pump.

Pros:

• This approach is simple to implement and manage.

Cons:

• There is less incentive for people to donate the materials to build the well so it will probably take much longer to get going.
• There will not be any direct correlation between how many resources a person provides to build the well and how much petroleum they get from it.

Comments:

• There is no return on investment other than the ability to use the mine in the future --Hepnezr

Option 3:

Use a hybrid of options 1 and 2. Each person buys in for a certain number of shares as in option 1. When petroleum is pupmed from the well half goes to the person(s) doing the pumping and the other half goes to the guild to be distributed based on share ownership. This approach essentially has a more mild form of the pros and cons of options 1 and 2.

Comments:

I am partial to option 3. I think it's critical to have some sort of ownership rights in order to motivate people to come up with the necessary resources to build. We need 12,000 metal which will require some serious effort. I for one would like to get this up as soon as possible so we have petroleum available to fire the new furnaces. Update I've changed my mine and am now leaning towards a variant of option 2. See my comments down below. --Eldar

Option 4:

Similar to option 2 but once the well is build we make it public so anyone can use it. Guild members will have priority so if a guild member wants to use the well any members of the general public must wait. I believe this suffers from the same cons as option 2, with the possible additional benefit of getting some extra donations for building from the public at large.

Comments:

• Not sure how one would enforce the priority for members
• There is no real return on investment in this scenario so no real incentive to invest in the first place

Option 5:

Bit of a variation on the previous ideas. We put out 100 shares (instead of 20) which would attract more people. Of course any one may buy as many shares as they wish.

A fixed 20% of petroleum mined goes into the company coffers to be doled out 1% for each share. The rest of the petroleum is kept by whoever organized the wind. This does imply that only members of the cooperative can take petroleum from the mine and that we have to trust each other to deposit the right amount.

The cooperative take for each pump goes into a common coffer that can only be taken from by the controlling body (3 high ranking members). Once a week (or on request) the contents of this chest is emptied into chests owned by each of the members based on the % share owned. This is done by one of the controlling body members.

Pros:

• More people will have the opportunity to invest due to the smaller share increments. This should also get us up and running sooner
• A lower percentage company take will encourage more people to come and pump because the payout will be higher.

Cons:

• More people will have to be trusted to give the cooperative % due
• Lower % cooperative take for a pump will give lower return in the short term
• Will require a small compound for the chests that has to be maintained

Deepwell Build Location

If anyone knows of a particular reason to build in one place rather than another please speak up. Barring that, I would propose we build the well near the guildhall in norther Shabbat Ab across from the Goods. This is a fairly central location, right near an expadition site, and surrounded by many good herb areas. Access to herbs will be a huge benefit since you can eat the herbs to boost relevant stats and then operate the well much more efficiently. --Eldar

Deepwell Operation

I think we should try to set up some sort of a schedule for operating the well so we can ensure it is running at maximum efficiency. One idea would be to create a simple weekly calendar and divide it up into timeslots. Members could then pick timeslots when they would operate the well. This would allow people to choose times that are convenient for them and a coordinated effort would ensure the well was running a larger percentage of the time. If we can manage back to back timeslots without downtime it would also cut down on the number of repairs required which are fairly expensive at 50 leather each. --Eldar

Expanding on the timeslot idea above, we could tie in the timeslots with the share ownership, allowing each share to select a timeslot which they would "own" where they or somebody they designate could operate the well. The more shares you own, the more timeslots you get. Using this method timeslots could also be traded or sold. --Eldar

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Am finding it difficult to give an opinion on the options above due to lack of understanding in how the deepwell is operated- things that would help if known - how many people needed to wind? will food be needed to do this - can one person keep it wound on 0 stats?- generally however the simplest option seems the best - 20 shares everyone gives 20th of mats those 20 have access to well, what they produce when winding they keep or if team split etc. If later people want to buy in once its built whatever payment is required is split 20 ways between the original share holders. new members become associates or whatever and have access to well but not future payments from those joining later- but how that would work when combined with perhaps needing to have rota running to wind the well is where I'm stuck and what I've suggested may be way to simple depending on answer to those questions :) Am not sure what the intention of having members representing guilds is, will other members of guild be joining SADC so they have access and if so I think the shares should expand like wise for instance if I want my hubby to join so hes got access/ability to wind well too then I'd be buying 2/20 or 2/?? whatever amount of shares we end up on, likewise guild with 5 members joining buy in 5/??- overall the more people the better, the smaller donation each has to make and the more folk to keep it wound over time. Another consideration would be repair mats do we gather mats for repair which everyone has access too or is it up to an idividual when they come to wind and find it broken to repair from own mats- again this will all depend on whats decided re how operation works etc--Trillian 00:09, 30 January 2009 (EST)

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My understanding of well operation is also a bit sketchy but here is how I think it might work for us.

I think if we operate the well like a dig it might work best. Any one can organize a 'pump' but a cooperative member is needed to get it going and take the petroleum out.

Each member is given a time (or several times) during which she will be responsible for attending any pump operations. How these operations are organized is up to the individual, but it is important that during each assigned time, a cooperative member is available. It might be useful to have multiple people assigned for busy times. The responsibility of the person "on duty" would be to assist any one who wishes to start pumping, like the organizer of a dig. This person is also responsible for taking the petroleum out of the mine and stashing the cooperative take and handing it to the miners.

If we go for a completely public mine, there is no need for a person on duty since their only real function would be to enforce the cooperative take.

--Hepnezr

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To operate the deepwell you need to wind the pump, then each minute as the pump unwinds the well will produce 6 petroleum which goes into the well's inventory. There is a pretty good description of this on the Tale 3 wiki.

You definitely need multiple people at zero stats to operate the well (probably 3 to 5). You could probably get by with 3 on grilled onions. You should be able to work the well solo with decent str/end food (maybe +3/+3 or so). If you can find a good strength herb nearby and eat it fresh from the ground you would be able to wind up the well to a max of 100+ before it's affects wore off since each wind will increase the tesion by an amount equal to your strength.

--Eldar

Comment So if we put up a kitchen close by and stock it, we might not need public assistance with pumping? --Correct, I think decent level 3 or 4 food should allow a single person to wind up the pump. Alternatively, if you find a good STR or END herb you should be able to eat that and wind the pump without any food.

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Current Proposal

After giving some serious thought I believe we should try to keep this arrangement as simple as possible. The more complicated it is, the more problems we're likely to have.

I propose a new variant of option 2.

Divide the initial cost of the well into X number of shares. the entry fee into the guild will be the cost of 1 share so the guild will ultimately have X members. All members of the guild are free to use the well as they wish and keep what they pump. I think 50 members is about right. The cost of entry is relatively low at that point and there will not be too much contention to use the well.

If someone is able to donate a cornerstone we can build a compound at the well site for a kitchen, otherwise if we build the well near the guildhall I can make a public kitchen available at one of my compounds nearby.

All members would be asked to donate food/herbs for the kitchen and maybe some leather to have some on hand just encase someone comes to pump and forgets to bring the necessary materials for repair.

Those of use here early can front the cost to build the well so we can get it up more quickly, then as new members join their entry fee will be used to pay back anyone who donated more up front. At this point I expect I'll be able to provide between 25 and 50 percent of the needed metal within the next week or two. I will also volunteer to be the last one to be paid back, just encase we never get to full membership I'll eat the extra cost.

IMPORTANT Anyone who has iron or copper ore which will be used for this project, do not smelt it yet. Please contact me and arrange to have it smelted in my hades furnace as the metal yield will be MUCH higher and we will be able to build more quickly.

I think it's worth noting that once hades furnaces become more common there will be deep wells all over the place so the "return on investment" idea will probably not last very long. With this in mind I think the more simple model of free and open use of the pump to all guild members is the way to go.

p.s. Please forgive me for dissapearing for about 10 days...wife had a baby and I was busy getting my hades furnace up :).

--Eldar

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this last proposition sounds good to me, although I'm not sure we need 50 share.

I know personally I have mats for about 3 screw gears ready, which I'd be willing to "loan" if we decide the share will be smaller than that, and won't be in a hurry to get back.

What I'm wondering is, now what? how do we decide on a proposition and how do we move forward with it?

- Aplus

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Can everyone please read the section titled Current Proposal. If anyone feels this is not workable please speak up so we can more forward. Also, how many members should we have? I think between 20 and 50 makes sense. Suggestions?

--Eldar