Demipharaoh Debates/2012 02 24

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February 23 (UTC) Debate from Election #2 Between Khama & LuluDivine

Demi-Pharaoh results from X voters:

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Dreasimy: Welcome to the 3rd Debate in the 2nd Election for the 2nd Demi-Pharaoh of the 6th Tale of ATITD! For the duration of the debate trade posts on Bazaar will be halted (you can use L2PBS for this purpose during this period) and only debate-related posts will be let through. Our candidates tonight are Khama and LuluDivine!

Dreasimy: For those who have never had the opportunity to interact with you before can you share a little about yourself and/or what you enjoy about ATITD and how long you've been playing?

LuluDivine: Thanks for hosting this Dreasimy!

LuluDivine: I have been playing since the beginning of Tale 4. My brother, Sigil, introduced me to the game, and I quickly became addicted ;) During Tale 4, I was one of the primary leaders of Oasis, a large guild in downtown Meroe that focused a fair bit on mentorship of new players, as well as public works. In Tale 5, my primary guild, Children of the Flax (CotF) was substantially more intimate. I ran the guild tilestore throughout the tale, which provided tiles of every found color. I also worked heavily with Augir to build and manage the Sterope aqueduct project (WET), and later in the tale managed the Festivals guild for the first few months of festivals - during which we successfully passed a large number of people on the test. I was also a DP during Tale 5, and while the job can be a bit stressful at times, enjoyed it greatly. During Tale 6, I drafted the Anti-Griefers Act, and spent many hours drawing in signatures for the petition - we managed nearly a third of the population of egypt signing before it even went to ballot!

Khama: Well I played in T2 (Same name) and was a part of the Lower Nubia Public Works. My mentor was Deeva. I played all tale T2, very beginning of T3, and the very end of T5. I was also in the Egypt Wide DP Vote in T2.

Khama: This tale I opened up Leadership init, and then immediately started the River Plains Public Works. (Shameless Plug, if you are in RP and need public use equipment, stop by, we are next to Ulead)

Khama: River Plains Public Works

Khama: I mainly devote my time to Public Works, Mentorship, helping others and Research. In fact I don't have a personal compound. Everything I have has been guilded to the public works, given to others, or donated to research. I keep a small WH for "personal" stuff, that I mostly either give away, or use for the public works. Ask anyone that knows me, and they will tell you I am always willing to help and lend a hand.

Khama: I am focusing on Leadership tests this tale, and hope to become an Oracle of Leadership. One of those steps includes passing the test of the Demi-Pharaoh. I would also like to honor my Mentor Deeva, by becoming DP and Oracle of Leadership.

Khama: I have some mentor shrines built, and should pass test of the Coalition this round. I have not yet started Hedgemon, as I need one more level to do so.

Khama: I like the Socio aspect of the game. Pulling together to complete projects and helping one another.

Dreasimy: Thanks both of you :D

Dreasimy: If you win this election you will pass the test of the Demi-Pharaoh and be our 2nd DP of this tale. There are a variety of points of view on what the role of DP should be, what is yours?

Khama: As was stated, there are many points of view on what the role of a DP is. Everything from glorified "police", to mediator, to nothing but a title. I view the DP as the "representative" of egypt masses. Elected for a number of reasons, as a buffer from griefers (With the ban power and now the anti griefers law), as a mediator (Should thats what be asked of the DP), and as a role model.

Khama: The true power of the DP actually lies in Egypts Citizens. DP power is bestowed upon them by the citizens and as we have seen, can be revoked by the citizens. The DP has the title because of all of you, as as such should represent with due diligence. If you look to the DP as a mediator, then thats what the DP should be. If you look to the DP for conflict resolution, then a DP should do their best to provide such. First and foremost however, the DP should be a role model, and act accordingly.

LuluDivine: I believe that the role of DP is primarily a role of mediation. While the banstick is always available for serious situations, and indeed gives teeth to some mediation processes, the most useful role of a DP lies in trying to mediate compromises between otherwise recalcitrant parties. Such mediation is most successful when both parties feel their concerns have been heard and understood, and that some middle ground has been reached between what may have seemed before to be incompatible viewpoints. Generally, such compromises are essentially a question of incentives - when each party gives a little ground, a solution can generally be found that preserves each party's top priority. Often DPs are involved because the communication has broken down, and the parties cannot see a way to compromise - the DPs job, in these cases is to foster non-hostile communication, and to sort out the primary priorities of each party. As most people agree, I too think the banstick is reserved for only the most egregious situations, where both the behavior in question is extreme, and no compromise can be reached.

Dreasimy: Well done well done :)

Dreasimy: Do you have any thoughts on the Anti-Griefers Act or its recent uses?

Khama: I think the anti Griefers Act is one of the best laws I have seen passed. It totally removes the need for DP bans, and places Egypt Citizens in the center of deciding if someone should be exiled.

Khama: I understand the recent additions to the vote were twofold. One since one of the people is already exiled, this will allow their items use to grief to be torn down

Khama: The other was, as I understand (and I could be wrong), a test to see if Teppy had coded in any precautions against his own or GM exile. While I may not agree with putting the Pharaoh up for exile to test coding, I do understand the reasoning.\, and kuupid was asked by some to test it.

LuluDivine: Apologies in advance, I'm afriad my answer to this is rather long.

LuluDivine: I actually drafted the AGA, so I have rather strong feelings on the subject. :) I wrote the AGA specifically to combat the geodude situation - i.e., obvious griefers who had only griefing as their agenda, who eluded ban attempts by DPs, and who left griefer detritus in their wake. We have attempted, in past tales, to pass laws prohibiting certain behaviors, and have always become mired in the definition of 'griefing'. Trying to draft legislation that prohibits those behaviors, while still allowing for legitimate gameplay has always proved to be a near impossible task.

LuluDivine: It has always been within the power of the people of egypt to write petitions to ban individual players - however, this process is extraordinarily time consuming, and the situations that call for it are often at least somewhat time sensitive. The primary motivation I had for writing the AGA was to streamline that process, and make this already existing power of the people more accessible and useful.

LuluDivine: The cleanup portion of the law was written specifically to capture all buildings 'built by' a griefer, as opposed to ones merely 'owned by', so that they would not be able to protect woodplane armies, for instance, by transferring ownership to a paid but inactive player name.

LuluDivine: I had some debate about whether bans under the AGA should 'use up' one of the accusing DP's bans. However, as this process was meant to merely streamline an existing power of the people, it seemed a fair argument that it would be the people of egypt banning the griefer, as opposed to the DP. Additionally, when the geodude drama was in full swing, there was legitimate concern that he would continue to create account after account, until the only DP we had at the time had no bans left to use.

LuluDivine: If a 'normal petition' were utilized to ban a griefer (and cleanup), it would only have to pass with 50% of the vote. To balance the greater accessibility of the streamlined process of the AGA, I believed a higher vote threshhold was necessary, to help protect against potential abuses of the process - which is why the AGA requires at least 60% of the votes to be for exile. The fact that only a DP can submit the 'streamlined petition' via the AGA was meant to be an additional protection against abuses. I also felt strongly that it was imperative that the accusing DP's name be on the system log, so that the people of egypt knew who was submitting the petition.

LuluDivine: I believe the uses of the AGA to deal with Geodude and his alts have worked essentially as intended, and have caused Geodude to seek greener pastures, as well as allow us to clean up the mess he left behind. While I agree that Teppy should have coded it originally to avoid the potential of banning 'Pharaoh', I was not a fan of utilizing the process to test it against him - I think too many people did not take the vote seriously, and it could have been potentially irritating for all of us if he had actually been exiled. I don't think, however, it's a cause for concern for the possibility of innocent players being put up for a vote - I have confidence that the voters of egypt would actually be more careful about voting for a player that cannot protect themselves than they were with the Pharaoh vote.

LuluDivine: A number of recent ideas have been put forward to modify or amend the AGA, which I think is a great idea. The best idea I've heard so far has come from Aetherfang, which is to include in the petition itself a link to a page outlining the 'charges', so that voters can be fully informed. (It was originally proposed to include the actual claims in the petition itself, but I do worry about running up against a character limit there.)

LuluDivine: I actually don't anticipate the AGA being used much, if at all, now that the geodude situation has been, I believe, fully handled.

Dreasimy: Thank you both for those thoughtful answers :)

Dreasimy: ·Pardon the hypothetical here, however, for the moment, imagine that Egypt has passed a law or Code of Conduct that directs Demi-Pharaohs to ban under certain conditions. BUT the conditions are ones you feel strongly are not ones that warrant a ban and doing so is not in the best interest of Egypt. If you were DP under such circumstances what would you do?

Kanixihk: sorry to interject - given how long some of these responses are, I'd like to remind folks that you can read bazaar and other mics at

Kanixihk: http://services.atitd.org/log.php

Khama: I would put the person in question up on the AGA petition and allow egypt to decide. .... I dont see much if any use for a DP ban now (Baring somone running around and exploding CS's , Unis, CP's ETC without stopping. ... The AGA is there for a reason. If egypt felt strongly enough that I didnt do my job, I would welcome a recall petition and would sign it myself.

LuluDivine: If a law were passed, and not test-vetoed by pharaoh, forcing the use of bans in situations I was strongly opposed to, and believed it harmed egypt to do so, I would resign as DP. I would not feel it was appropriate to continue on in the role if I could not carry out the duties of the role (which would have been changed, post my election), but I would also be unable to act in a manner I felt was harmful to egypt, or unethical.

Dreasimy: Now for a quesiton from the audience: ·Casino: Q for both Khama and LD: If you are elected DP and it is brought to your attention that a vvery close friend or Guildmate had used explosives to destroy a travel facility in Egypt, first how would you handle that? secondly Should anyone who uses explosives to grief or retaliate, be banned permanently?

LuluDivine: For a long time I have supported legislation that would prevent the anonymous destructive use of explosives. There is currently a petition out to do exactly this, which I have signed, and am fact carrying a copy of. Situations of malicious destruction would inherently be fact dependent. While there is the most obvious case of someone wantonly destroying property and/or cs's with no compunction and a stated intent to continue - in which case permanent banning is appropriate and indeed, unavoidable - such a result may not be entirely desirable in all circumstances. I consider myself essentially a pragmatist, and the reality is that once something has been destroyed, the most important objective is putting the injured party back in the position they were before the injury. For someone who has had an object destroyed, it is generally of the most value to them to have the damage repaired or the goods replaced. The aggressor may in some cases be amenable to repaying the repair costs, or replacing ruined items - but they would likely have no incentive to do either of those things if facing a permanent ban. Should an aggressor be willing to repay all damage caused, i.e., 'put the injured party back in same position they were in before the injury', the appropriate solution may be to have them do that, and face a temporary ban additionally. In some sense, this parallels the US legal system, where civil cases handle the 'debt to the injured party' (repaying the repair mats), while criminal cases handle the 'debt to society' (banning). A permanent ban may be necessary in some cases, but it is crucial to realize that by its very nature it precludes the possibility of repayment directly to the injured party.

LuluDivine: If someone guilty of such a destructive offense were a close guildmate, or close personal friend, I would feel compelled to recuse myself from the adjudication of the matter. There are two crucial reasons for this. 1) It is impossible for any person to be entirely free from bias in situations that involve themselves, or people that are extremely close to them - a conflict of interest is extremely difficult to eradicate. 2) Even if such objectivity could be achieved, the decision would always retain a taint of suspicion of bias. Far better for all involved if the matter is handled by those who are not personally involved with the parties.

Khama: since I am elder and founder of the River Plains Public Works, if it were one of my guildmates, and intended, they would no longer be a member. IF it were not intentional, and the person in question was to rebuild, and replace the mats needed, I don't think I would remove them from guild.

Khama: I was not around in the previous tale, but I am aware of an explosive issue. I would first discuss the issue with the other DP's. Speak to the people in question if possible (Find out if it was accident, or intended), and try to gather a consensus. I currently see no reason (With the anti griefers law in effect) where I would use my ban. I would put the person up for egypt to decide if their actions should result in exile, SHOULD the fellow DP's and a consensus think it appropriate to vote on.

Khama: As I stated earlier, the only reason I could see for using my DP bans, is someone going around and blowing up items, over and over with no sign of stopping. Uni's ... Cs's ... etc. And I would only ban with a discussion of the other DP's and general consensus

Dreasimy: Follow up question from Casino is, should that person be banned for the act?

LuluDivine: I believe I stated my position on whether or not it is practical to permanently ban someone over such destruction, depending on whether damage could be repaired by the offending party instead of the victim, etc, and thus, whether permanent ban or temporary bans and a 'fine' paid to the victim is more appropriate.

Khama: One time act? Was it intentional? Could a resolution be found? Items replaced and rebuilt if nessasary? Again, I would probably leave the decision up to egypt under the AGA, and woud only place the person on an AGA petition after discussion with the parties involved, DP discussion and general concensus.

Dreasimy: Ok great, moving on!

Dreasimy: we have a question just for Lulu now but Id also like to add to it :)

Dreasimy: Casino: Lulu, not alot of egyptians are aware that your in-game husband and fellow elder in FoA blew up a travel facility in Egypt last tale, his only explanation was 'he was mad' at a few people, Will SkyFeather have 'access' to your 'Password" thus access to your account?

Dreasimy: but I'll just open it up to both candidates :) Does anyone who has blown anything up in previous tales have access to your account via password? That seems more fair to me ;)

Kanixihk: for those who aren't aware: if you're married to someone, you can change their password. So they'll be aware that you logged in as them after the fact, but the damage will be done.

LuluDivine: Skyfeather does not have access to my password, nor can an ingame spouse utilize DP powers. Additionally, skyfeather is well aware that I would string him up by his unmentionables, which is a far stronger deterrent than anything in game.

Khama: No one has access to my password

Dreasimy: thanks :D

Dreasimy: And noowwwww onto a question from Catote!

Dreasimy: Catote: Question for both candiates: Since DP is about resolving and preventing conflicts, please explain how your main guild is exposed to conflict and how you think it will affect your role as DP.

Khama: My main guild is the River Plains Public Works .... dedicated to providing public use equipment, mentoring, and research donation .... not sure I see how that is exposed to conflict, unless a hoarding guild is pissed we are helping others for free.

LuluDivine: Interesting question Catote. Obviously, there are a wide variety of opinions on my guild. Already throughout this tale I have had to discuss issues with a few people who disagreed with something we had done, or did not understand it. In many of these conversations, the person walked away with a greater understanding of a playstyle that differed from their own.

LuluDivine: I will not pretend that every single person was won over completely, but in conflict resolution the goal is often simply to encourage each side to see the situation from the other person's perspective, even if they ultimately continue to disagree with it.

Dreasimy: alrighty :)

LuluDivine: I would like to additionally point out that if a DP matter involved FoA specifically, I would recuse myself, and ask another DP to handle the issue. In case I haven't made that clear.

Dreasimy: I've got a couple of somewhat related questions in the hopper here, let's hear from a new questioner next, Rabble!

Rabble: My question: When FoA built the first gold mine, they kept it private and carpetmined the deposit to block other mines. When FoA unlocked raelis in EG, they kept it off the wiki. Since FoA did 100% of the work, it was within their rights. But it would have helped a lot of other players -- and not really hurt FoA -- if they had done things differently. Lulu, you defended both acts very vocally. Why should we vote for a DP who puts her own interests so far in front of the interests of the general playerbase?

LuluDivine: I think that one of the beautiful parts of egypt is that there are so many different playstyles, interests, and competition styles. People from every facet and flavor must learn to live together, even if they disagree with how their neighbor farms their flax, or mines their metals. I do not disagree that FoA has been on the more competitive side in certain situations, but there are aspects this game that are designed to be competitive, and I do not think that is inherently a bad thing

LuluDivine: Members of my guild, including me, worked for many days straight cooking, herb stacking, and dowsing incessantly looking for metals. We did intend to keep our metal mines private, at least for awhile, so that we would be competitive in some of the competivitely scored tests. We did, however, intend to make gold accessible for trade after a short initial time frame, so long as other gold had not yet been found by others. We traded gold during that period for a variety of goods, including simple goods like silt and papyrus. We never had any interest in maintaining a trade monopoly on gold, and were quite sure that there were a number of other gold spots in egypt that could be found when people cooked, herb stacked, and dowsed to find them. Gold was found by the GoldDiggers guild extremely quickly after they got together to work on it.

Daniels: Follow up question for Khama: How do you feel about the actions of FoA this Tale that Rabble has mentioned?

LuluDivine: As for the unlocking of Raeli Pottery, I will point out that all of our ovens are at 20% user take, but that percentage is slated to go up drastically when our aqueduct is finished. We will likely not ever be selling tiles, as a result of this plan.

Khama: In response to Daniels - As I have stated ... everything I own is guilded to the River Plain Public Works. FoA has their style of play. Do I subscribe to the stlyle of play, no. Hence my focus on public works, mentoring and research. But to each their own. As I stated earlier, I think any DP elected should be a role model.

Dreasimy: Thanks y'all :D Let's see here <shuffles notes>

Dreasimy: I think this was somewhat covered but since it will give you the opportunity to further reveal warm fuzzies I'm going to risk repeating ourselves

Dreasimy: Casino: As a DP candidate, what qualifications, attributes do you possess that would make me vote for you? Are you genoerous? do you support the sharing of resources that egypt offers? do you help others?

Khama: I learned the game from my Mentor Deeva, in T2. I think she taught me well, and brought me into the fold of the Lower Nubia Public Works. It makes me feel good to help others and provide assistance and help. That is the part of the game that attracts me here. I think my willingness to help others, is a good quality in a DP. I share all I have with anyone that needs it. I have RL experiance as a youth councillor, and advisor. I think those qualities combined would make me a prepared DP.

LuluDivine: Personally, I do consider myself a generous person. While my guild does play in a more competitive style in certain situations, I have often gone out of my way to provide help to fellow players, in the form of advice, or teaching about a skill I have spent time developing (such as how raeli ovens operate, the nature of the color map, and how to predict where best to drop an oven, and what colors it will produce), or to giving mats to someone who needs them. Toward the end of last tale, I spent almost all of my playing time working on the Festivals guild, creating and running Festivals, organizing materials, making wine, beer, citrus fruits etc. It was exhausting, but worth it, and I consider it time well spent.

Dreasimy: Any last questions that we have not already covered? :D

Dreasimy: Ok candidates please submit your closing statements to the populace :D

Kanixihk: Dreasimy, would you mind leaving the debate open a little while longer?

Kanixihk: I suspect that some of us are still getting our thoughts in order. Just 5-10 minutes?

Nchanter: Priates or Ninjas!? (And WHY)

LuluDivine: Pirates, obviously...I'm sorry, have you SEEN Johnny Depp as Captain Jack Sparrow?

Khama: Ninja's .... sorry I get sea sick ;-) ... not to mention, Ninja's are EVERYWHERE, thay are just so good, you never see them ;-)

Kanixihk: this may seem a snarky question... but in light of the AGA, do you feel that there's a meaningful role for the DP? Won't every DP submit every ban consideration to the public vote, and everyone vote for any DP they trust to do so?

LuluDivine: Kanixihk, it's an interesting question - I do believe there is still a role for the DP. In fact, I think it's unlikely the AGA will get used much at all. The AGA was never intended to be a catch all for all ban acts, but rather only for *obvious griefers*. Not just people who had committed offenses, but people who's actions were so egregious, and who's sole purpose so clear, that one could not avoid the conclusion.

LuluDivine: Frankly, the AGA is a clunky and time consuming way to deal with a normal ban - additionally, garnering the 60% vote necessary to put them through to exile serves as a serious deterrent to using it as the primary ban mechanism. Many people might agree, for instance, that someone probably ought to get banned, but won't agree that all their built items (regardless of current ownership) should go up in smoke with them, and will therefore vote no.

Khama: Kanixihk .... DP is a needed step in becoming Oracle of LEadership, which I am actively pursuing. As I stated before, I dont think there is a situation where I would use my bans, unless it was constant blowing up of CS's, Uni's Etc that would be detrimental to this tale, causing the peopluation to flee if it continued. I would absolutly use the AGA, and allow egypt to deicde the fate of any griefer (After dicussion with other DP's and general egypt consenus.

Kanixihk: well, I have limited drama experience (bastet vet here), but wouldn't most ppl choose to delegate their ban powers to the community as a whole rather than risk retribution for unpopular bans?

Kanixihk: Khama, frankly, while I recognize the value of having oracles of each stripe, I'm not going to base my DP vote on that concern - too much potential danger vs an uncertain prize

LuluDivine: Kanixihk - I think it's possible people may try, but I honestly think relying on egypt to ban offending parties is a losing bet most of the time. I might predict it gets tried a few times before DPs realize they are just going to have to do the dirty deed themselves, in most situations

Dreasimy: Let's try to keep it to questions for the candidates and not comments please

Dreasimy: Now Id like to ask the candidates to wrap up their final thoughts unless there is anything else pressing :D

LuluDivine: I would like to thank Egypt for tuning in tonight (or reading this in the logs)! I realize a lot of the debate turned on questions about FoA specifically. While I understand this, I would like people to remember that I am more than my guild affiliations. I am proud of the work I have done on the AGA, the work I did last tale on months of Festivals, and the work I did while DP last tale. I am always available for further questions, or to clarify any statements made here tonight (or elsewhere).

Khama: I thank everyone in my previous rounds for letting me advance, and I thank my Mentor Deeva for showing me the ropes. I have a very good opponent in LuluDivine, and whichever way Egypt votes, I am sure they will get a compitant DP. As I said in my opeining statement, I hope to become Oracle of Leadership this tale, and DP is a step in that direction. A vote for me is a vote for a focused, and energentic candidate. But DP or not, if you are ever in River Plains and need Public Equipment, stop by RPPW (Next to Ulead) ... or need a hand, feel free to chat me up!

LuluDivine: *shakes Khama's hand* It was lovely debating with you ;)

Dreasimy: Well done both candidates, thank you very much for thoughtful answers today :D I appreciate it and your time :D

merek: And thanks to Dreasimy for moderating!

Dreasimy: Pshaw who, me? you jest

Khama: I would like to thank Dreasimy for organizing this debate, and wish LuluDivine the best. Egypt is sure to get a dedicated DP what ever the vote. As a sign of peace, I am opening a bottle of "Vote for Khama" and a bottle of "Vote for Lulu, she's Divine" at RPPW if anyone wants to stop by for a drink. TY all for the opportunity to be here tongiht! (RPPW is next to Ulead in River Plains)

Dreasimy: You will be able to find the logs on this page tomorrow:

Dreasimy: http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale6/Demipharaoh_Debates

Dreasimy: Classy Khama, classy ;D

Fumen: thanks for hosting,dreasimy! good luck to both candidates!