Demipharaoh Debates/2012 04 20

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Election 4 Chet, Dreasimy, McArine, Osidion, Zhukuram - April 2012

Candidates:
Chet
Dreasimy
McArine
Osidion
Zhukuram: My DP Statement Here

April 17, 2012 Debate #1 Chet, McArine, Zhukuram

LuluDivine: Welcome to the first DP Debate of the 4th Election of Tale 6! Our candidates for this debates are: Chet, McArine, and Zhukuram. We will be starting with some standard questions, and some questions submitted by players over the last few days. If you would like send a question (new or followup) for the candidates to answer, simply send it to me in private chat, or ask it in this channel, and I will post it through at the appropriate time. All commentary on the debate, as well as general 'Worship Station' chatter, should occur in L2PBS instead of here, though.

LuluDivine: We're just going to dive right in with some basic questions about who the heck you three really are, and what makes you tick!

LuluDivine: For those who have never had the opportunity to interact with you before can you share a little about yourself and/or what you enjoy about ATITD and how long you've been playing?

Zhukuram: For all intents and purposes I am a noob to Egypt. I did play a long time ago but have forgotten just about everything, so for me this is a whole new game again. I play to have fun and focus on those things that I think are interesting. I like the Body Tests and cicada hunting but I am enjoying the Worship tests too. I've started to dabble in Pyro some and that looks to be really interesting too. I came to Egypt this time with 2 friends: Rana and Kaa. Kaa rarely gets to play due to RL and Rana comes when she feels up to it. Rana is very special and she is the designer and creator of the Wall of Passed Time. http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale6/User:Zhukuram/Wall_of_Passed_Time What we all like about Egypt is that there is a lot more to do here than what you see on the surface. And the ability to make our own game within a game is something unique to Teppy's world.

Chet: Greetings fellow Egyptians,lend me your ears ..uh oops. I have been playing ATITD since T2, off and on, including the ill fated Bastet. There are lot of things I enjoy about this game, and a lot that drive me crazy (like dark night) but what keeps me playing is the community. It reminds me of family in many ways, fight and argue then work together to get things done.

McArine: Hello all :-) I have been playing ATitD since the end of 2006, half a year into T3, and have been playing ever since. I keep playing this game, because it's the best game I know. I enjoy the group activities in the game, the challenges and the community.

LuluDivine: There are a variety of points of view on what the role of DP should be, what is yours?

Zhukuram: When something gets to the DPs it's like hitting Last Resort in acro. Things have gone from fun to un-fun somewhere along the way and often there are not many good choices left for the players themselves to resolve the conflict.

Zhukuram: DPs can bring compassion and suggestions to help resolve conflicts when those are helpful and when things are going really poorly the Ban Stick or threat of it, may resolve some part of a problem.

Zhukuram: DPs can point the way back to fun but the players in conflict have to select that avenue for themselves. A DP cannot force anyone to have fun but they do have the possibility to limit the impact of these un-fun situations on other players.

McArine: I believe it's about mediating disputes and handling troublemakers. I also believe that it is about the courage to use a ban. If you don't want to use a ban, I don't think you should be a DP.

Chet: Generally DP 'power' make them a bad person to comment on a lot of things. DP should set a good example of behavior and stay out of arguments unless its really called for.

LuluDivine: What distinguishes you as a DP candidate over the rest?

Zhukuram: Well, one thing is that I may be one of the lesser known members of Egypt's community.

Zhukuram: My first goal here is to have fun and that is how I see the game. For me this is entertainment and it is not a job, vocation or means of livelyhood. So, the way I play the game is to stay small and flexible.

Zhukuram: So, perhaps I am more representitive of the smaller crafters and crofters in Egypt.

Zhukuram: I admire those that have massive production facitilities and can make huge investments of game time and resources for research and other major projects but I am a small production house and for me it's not about how much sheet glass I can produce but to enjoy the entire process of making it.

Chet: Absolutely nothing. All these candidates would make worthy DP's in my opinion.

McArine: I have been considering this question, and I think it enevitably leads to an attempt at making the other candidates look bad. And I will not do that. We're all here because the players in our initial rounds have deemed us worthy. So my answer is: I'm the tallest ;-)

LuluDivine: Have you played ATITD under other names in this tale or past ones, and if so, what were the names you played under?

Zhukuram: It was a long time ago.

McArine: No, I've had an alt named McArinesSlave, I blame Yendor for that name. This tale I've started an alt named Square, I blame Telanoc for that.

Chet: Yes, but frankly I don't recall exact name I used first - was chettie or Chetty or ..well some version of that.

LuluDivine: In other tales DPs elected at the beginning of the tale leave before the game end. This leaves a vacumn at the end game when they are needed the most. What is your committment to the game and how will you manage to last the entire tale?

McArine: I've played continuously for over 5 years now, and the only reason I see that I should leave for good, is if Teppy really borks the game. I've always been active all the way through the tales, most active in the start, less active towards the end, when things slow down. But allways logging in the days I'm able to.

Zhukuram: I currently have a fully paid 1 year sub (starting from beginning of Tale6) and I intend to continue playing until Teppy shuts down the servers at end of tale.

Zhukuram: In addition Rana's Wall of Passed Time project will continue until end of tale and that will need the Zhukuram Construction Company to keep the expansions going.

Zhukuram: http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale6/User:Zhukuram/Wall_of_Passed_Time

Chet: DP disease is something I do fear. People I least expect seem to go away after getting elected (maybe its a plot?) All I can say is I have no plans to go anywhere.

LuluDivine: What have you done, or what do you plan to do, to benefit Egypt as a whole?

Zhukuram: Our guild's main contribution will be The Wall of Passed Time a long term art project designed by Rana.

Chet: hmmm I doubt there is any one thing that would benefit al of Egypt. Do what I can to help, when I can, where it appears to be needed. And stay out of it when I might be in the way.

McArine: I have allways been active in the regional projects in the region I live in. In this tale and the last two tales I've been leading the construction of an aqueduct. I've been doing research into chemistry, incense making, beer brewing, and chime tuning. And generally trying to help with opening techs whenever I can. I've also been doing a lot of trade in previous tales, although I've had to cut back on that, since it drained me of energy.

LuluDivine: How would you handle it, as DP, if you were involved in an interpersonal conflict with another player?

Zhukuram: Well, first I hope this never happens but in the case it did I would first a) try to resolve it on my own b) ask advice of those who may have insight and c) notify the other DPs that I am having difficulty resolving an issue and request assistance.

Zhukuram: At that point the DP process (as I call it) would kick in and I would follow the suggestions as they are made.

Zhukuram: But in no way would I use my authority as DP to resolve my own personal conflict with another player.

Chet: Assuming I couldn't handle it myself I would ask another DP to take over.

McArine: I would involve another DP, and consult with the other DP's before doing anything.

LuluDivine: Have you been involved in resolving conflicts in ATITD and/or real life? Can you give any specific examples of how you have helped mediate a situation between two parties who could not see eye to eye?

Zhukuram: Well, in RL I am a retired Software Engineer and anyone who's been in the business knows that if you get 2 engineers in a room you will get 10 solutions to any problem and all of them mutually exclusive. <g>

Zhukuram: Sometimes egos get in the way of a project and conflicts between project teams can be a real impediment to getting the software out the door.

Zhukuram: When you are a project leader sometimes you have to select one aspect over another and put up with the flack the comes your way. Getting the parties back on track and working together is a fine art: when successful everyone pulls on the oars at the same time and when not, well someone moves to another project with better looking oars <g>

Chet: A couple times, early tale before DP I was asked to help out. Mostly its misunderstandings and not that hard to sort out. In real life, I raised 2 kids: they didn't kill each other or anybody else. :)

McArine: As a DP I was involved in a couple last tale, where I helped mediate conflicts. I have also done this in real life, but not as a professional. I will not give examples, as they often become shallow when you can't give specific details.

LuluDivine: Often disagreements in ATITD come from miscommunication, miscommunication can be battled by discussion but sometimes discussion can become heated. Are you in favor of free speech? Do you have an opinion on whether or not discussion should be censored when it gets heated?

Chet: Free Speech Always! That said sometimes a little cooling off is useful, before people say things they later wish they had not.

Zhukuram: Yes I am in favor of free speech but I am not in favor of uncensored language in an open channel. The main chats are moderated and there it is up to the channel holder to determine what kind of language is appropriate.

Zhukuram: Some guilds have open-language options and that is fine in general. I personally don't hang out in those channels and have left a few groups where the language was not the kind I want to spend my time with.

Zhukuram: In a game like Egypt were most communications are typed it takes 3 times a much effort to put in "swear" words than in spoken chats. 1. when you think of it 2. when you type it 3. when you press enter.

Zhukuram: When such language is directed at another player, it becomes problematic because if it is in open chat the entire community sees that communication and in a private chat it may be viewed as a form of harrasment.

McArine: I am in favor of free speech, but I do not think it is allright to use bad language and talk down to other players. We're all here to have fun, and we use our free time here. So if the discussion is in a moderated channel, I think it should be censored, and kept civil, to give the best possible discussion. A discussion will go nowhere if someone is throwing mud.

LuluDivine: Under what types of circumstances do you believe DPs should use permanent bans? If you are versed in ATITD lore, feel free to give an example from a previous tale where you agreed or disagreed with a ban, if you can't give examples from the past feel free to just discuss the merits of certain situations over others.

McArine: When people are intentionally ruining the gaming experience for others. When repeated stealing can be proven. When people abuses trust given to them by others, example: a new elder of a guild booting all the other elders.

Zhukuram: At the top of my list of eligible for perma-bans would be the use of any language or action that is derogatory, inflammatory or incites extreme prejudice or discrimination against another player due to the standard list: race, gender, nationality etc.

Zhukuram: Actions that may be eligible come under the heading of "griefing" but that is subjective at best.

Zhukuram: Even with a ban, situation like Geodude can still persist and other avenues had to be selected and enacted by all of Egypt.

Chet: Well Geodude and his alts were certainly proper bans. I haven't been around for the improper ones, only heard stories so in the interest of not furthering gossip I won't comment on them.

LuluDivine: How would you handle it if a close personal friend or guildmate made a complaint, or had a complaint made against, seeking your intervention as DP and possibly a ban?

Chet: I think I would recuse myself from things that involved my friends. As fair as I might try to be, it would always be a question.

McArine: I would refer to another DP, to keep my own feeling out of it. And no matter who approaches me, I would never give into pressure for a ban from a player, I'd allways make up my own mind.

Zhukuram: if I was asked to interviene in a problem I would look first to see if I was the right DP to do so. If I was not because of personal friendship or guildmates I would pass on the request or issue to the other DPs to resolve.

Zhukuram: If I had some insights I would surely share those with the other DPs

LuluDivine: In light of the AGA, do you feel that there's a meaningful role for the DP? Won't every DP submit every ban consideration to the public vote, and everyone vote for any DP they trust to do so?

Zhukuram: I can think there may be some situations (which I hope never to see) where a ban needs to be implemented sooner rather than later. But DPs are not bound to have a 'review' prior to implementation.

Zhukuram: If there was sufficent question about an action and time to reflect and review the outcomes then the voting process is a good one to follow.

Chet: AGA is best used when 'stuff' needs to be cleaned up too. Or if the DP can't catch up with an evasive type. :) But yes, it may indeed make DPs obsolete - someday.

McArine: I would only use the AGA if there's a strong public opinion in Egypt that the player deserves a ban, and I did not believe that the player deserves a ban. If I believe someone is deserving a ban, I would ban that player.

LuluDivine: If a person were submitted as a griefer under the AGA, and egypt voted AGAINST banning them, but you still felt they should be banned, would you? What if the general consensus of the rest of the DPs were that that person should not be banned, but you felt strongly that they should? Do you intend to make decisions unilaterally, or in concert with your fellow DPs?

Zhukuram: Hypothesis: someone needs to go play a different game but doesn't.

Zhukuram: First I would try to persuade the DPs for a consensus for a ban, but it that were not forthcoming and I believed that the person was detrimental to the whole of egypt and without possiblity of changing then I would ban them with or without consensus.

Zhukuram: And in the toughest case I would go against all of Egypt if the circumstances warranted it. No everyone in Egypt will know as much about the situation as the DPs so even if it were put up for a vote AND the individual squanders the goodwill of the people of Egypt - the ban stick would come out.

Chet: Well I like to think I make up my own mind - but going against the majority will seems a bit over the top. Nah wouldn't do that.

McArine: I allways intend to counsel with the other DP's. If there was disagreement between my opinion and the opinion of the other DP's, I'd probably still ban if I strongly felt it is deserved. There are many buts and what if's in the question, and I think the situation only has a very remote chance of happening. Last tale I did not experience the DP's being in disagreement about any decision.

LuluDivine: Please describe what you consider to be "Griefing" and what actions would cause you to submit someone's name up for exile-by-vote using the Anti- Griefing Act.

Zhukuram: Within Teppy's game there is really little that can be defined as griefing. But we all know it when we see it and defining it can be tricky.

Zhukuram: The AGA is really a tool for when a ban doesn't produce the intended effect such as with Geodude at the beginning of tale.

Zhukuram: If there was a possiblity that someone being considered for a ban might be able to evade the consequences via other routes then the AGA is a perfect way to proceed.

McArine: I think griefing is when a player are intentionally ruining the gaming experience for others. I would only start a AGA if there's a public outcry for one, and I did not believe that it merits a ban. If I thought it should be a ban, I'd ban.

Chet: Malice, deliberate action to 'annoy' another. Lack of remorse when other is injured. I would only submit to vote if I couldn't catch them, or if stuff needed to be removed to 'fix' things.

LuluDivine: Does anyone have access to login to your account? (ie, would any person other than yourself ever have access to your ban powers)?

Chet: no

Zhukuram: No one has access to my account. Rana is my ingame spouse and can spouse log in, however I don't think she ever has.

LuluDivine: Mod note: spouse log in does not give access to DP powers.

McArine: No, not atm. Last tale when I was a DP, I didn't give out my password to get help with festivals. And atm. I don't plan on doing it this tale.

LuluDivine: If you were not in the election and forced to vote, which candidate would you vote for?

Zhukuram: While all the candidates are extremely well qualified I would vote for Dreasimy and Osidion as my primary choices.

Chet: wow now thats a hard one - I still want to see what the others have to say in next debate.

McArine: I believe it would be a tie between Dreasimy and Osidion.

Chet: oh and a chance to read this, been too busy answering to reall all of the other answers.

LuluDivine: If you had to vote for one person in ATITD to be supreme leader, with power over all the other DPs, and unlimited bans, who would it be?

Zhukuram: Teppy - the one true Pharaoh

Chet: Telenoc (yes I know he can't be) otherwise if such a position was here I wouldn't vote.

McArine: I do not think that there is such a person in the game atm. Actually I do not believe Teppy should have that power, knowing how little time he spends in the game.

LuluDivine: Three great men sit in a room: a king, a priest, and a rich man. Between them stands a common sellsword. Each great man bids the sellsword kill the other two. Who lives and who dies?

Zhukuram: well assuming they are all unarmed except the sellsword the all die: King, Richman, Priest in that order. Then the Sellsword names himself King, High Priest and takes all the wealth for himself

Chet: well a true mercenary would I guess kill all, whats stop him. And walk away with all the fees.

McArine: Seeing as a sellsword is a mercenary and mercenarys usually work for the highest bidder, It would have to be the highest bidder that survives.

Rabble: I have a question: Why do you want to be DP? It seems like a lot of work and aggravation. Do you just like passing tests? Is it ego? Do you want to block other people who you think will make bad DPs? Do you have an enemies list and want paypack? Are you just bored with game?

Chet: All of the above? Nah, not really. Its a very good question - one I ask myself. I do actually enjoy being helpful to others here, not sure DP role will actually serve that, but I would like to find out.

Zhukuram: A: I don't expect to pass many tests - so no. I have no one I want to block. I think all of the folks who's stood for DP are good choices and future DPs not pad ones. I don't have an enemy list. I am not bored with the game at all. Being a DP is PART of the game. This is just as interesting an important as making sheet glass or any other activity in Egypt.

Zhukuram: And as I have never been a DP before I don't know about the work and aggravation part.

McArine: I want to be a DP for the challenge of helping other players, if you think that it will only cause aggrevation, you're very wrong, there's also a lot of pleasure in being able to help other people sorting their problems. And I think it is the highest honor we can give a player in this game, trusting them with 7 bans to do with as he or she pleases. LuluDivine: Since DPs are exempt from being banned, do you feel laws should be implemented to govern how DPs do their job, since, as a great man once said, no person should be above the law?

Chet: In a word - Yes. But sadly I don't think we would ever come up with a complete set of rules that would work.

Zhukuram: Teppy sets the rules and choice of who we select is part of it. There is no oversight at this juncture and it would require Teppy to change this part of the game to something else. I am ok if he changes it but right now <this> is what we have to work with

McArine: I do not think there should be written laws to govern HOW DP's do their job. And I don't see how they should be written or implemented, without being extremely vague. I think that the most important job in all Egypt is carried by the voters in Egypt, to pick the right DP's. And if they do their job proberly, such laws will never be needed.

LuluDivine: What is your opinion on the use of bonfires to 'claim' clay patches, sometimes weeks before the raeli tech even opens? What is your opinion on 'counter bonfiring' to combat this?

Zhukuram: The use of bonfires and drying racks for such purposes has been approved by the Devs.

Zhukuram: I wrote up the guide on Egyptian Building Codes to describe what is and isn't within the rules.

Zhukuram: http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale6/Guides/Egyptian_Building_Codes

Chet: Its overall pretty annoying and the counter fire only aggrevates it. But if it isn't bonfires, it will be brick racks or something else. A lot of Egypt loves the drams, and people will find a way. At least bonfires are a known evil.

McArine: I think it is childish, but I can understand some people claiming a clay spot close to their home. I think 'counter bonfiring' is equally childish, and shows even more immaturity. I do not think that any of these actions deserve a ban, and I'm certain that a creative mind could write a law to get rid of both problems. And as a final note, we have to accept that currently this is a part of the game, the same way as some players jump obelis\u1e31 queues, and take over bureaus.

LuluDivine: Do you feel there should be a limit on how many avatars one person can run? How do you feel about players who run alt armies that macro constantly?

Zhukuram: No limit on avatars other than your pocket book.

Zhukuram: Unattended macroing is against the rules. If the player is multi-boxing then that has been accepted by the Devs as being within the rules.

Chet: I think the alt armies and large amounts of macro use are slowly ruining the game for the more average player. I don't have a solution I just know that it really ruins things for some people..

McArine: As long as people do not break the Rules of Conduct, I have no problem with them spending their money in this game. Again this is a part of the game.

LuluDivine: How do you feel about the fact that no one knows who all the GMs are? How do you feel about the fact that players who volunteer for event staff are anonymous?

Zhukuram: Many GMs are known but they should be allowed to play the game too without hassles from anyone.

Zhukuram: When a GM is called they have responsiblities to the entire game population and give up their own time for this. Some peace outside of this is not too much to give them.

Zhukuram: Same with Event Staff.

Zhukuram: The only issue is that if <someone> is doing <something> they shouldn't, then they might get caught by a "stealthed" GM, but any player in the game can report an infraction too.

Chet: Well we recently saw an example of potential abuse of event 'powers', It might spoil the role playing nature but some accountablity for actions is needed

Chet: As for the GM's - recnetly I dfound out that even the GM's didn't know they couldn't be DP - some better communication is certainly needed.

McArine: I have no problems with either of these issues. I keep within the Rules of Conduct, and think that it is great that there are some players that want to do events for the rest of us.

LuluDivine: We have a followup on question before about alt armies and macroing.

Skyfeather: I think a lot of us know the rules, in a perfect world, how would you like to see it?

Skyfeather: Specifically, if you could change the rules, would you change them, and how?

Skyfeather: in regards to multiple accounts

Chet: A perfect world doesn't exist - but simple better policing of the current rules (no afk macroing) would help a lot I think.

Zhukuram: If the proposal would be to limit the number of accounts that a player can buy - then I don't see that happening. SWTOR LOTRO WOW etc all have mulptiple avatars/accounts as part of the process of being financially viable. So for Teppy to make any money at all this is the one thing that keeps the game afloat (imho)

Chet: I don't see having a limit on number of accounts, I expect that helps us still have the game.

Zhukuram: The issue of macros and the use of them then there should be changes - not to exclude them but to incorporate them in the game. Everyone should have equal access. But even LOTRO has implemented Lua coding so external executables are allowed in most games

Zhukuram: not to mention the high end gaming keyboards and mice that have these options built in.

McArine: I have no problems with people having many alts, or with people using macros, as long as they abide by the RoC. I know that there are issues, where some also use these alts to get easy test passes and things like that. But again, this is a part of the game, if you want to change it, make a law, I'm certain that one can be written that would limit the use of alts for passing tests. Regarding them having an advantage, I don't think this is true in all cases. A good example is the guild Zemples. We grouped up, prepared for raeli operations, built 40 ovens, and have now supplied loads of tiles for an aqueduct, and managed 11 temple passes in as many weeks. I doubt if a macroer could have managed that.

Lazybum: Would you find it acceptable to blow up the Tale2 monument of worship because the test of levened bread is utter crap?

Chet: lmao. I don't really know what effect blowing up a monument would have on the game but I kinda like the idea.

Zhukuram: ah no.. because I don't know the Tale 2 monument (is it that ugly) and I havent dont the leavened bread test yet - sounds like it might be like the Draigoch Raid in LOTRO (fixed but still borked) <G>

McArine: Since Skyfeather is complaining about the answers, I'll give a straight one. I wouldn't change any of the rules, I think they work as they are. If you want to limit alt's use on tests, I think that laws can be written for that.

LuluDivine: oops, that was a follow up from McARine to the last question. Apologies for posting out of order.

McArine: I think you should go ahead and blow it up Lazybum, I think the monument will survive, since it has passed the test of time. Not that I agree with you on the test, I actually think it is one of the more challenging worship tests. But if you blow up someone's cp, I'll come and get you ;-)

Bryce: Question. What test would you bring back from prior tales, and why?

Zhukuram: I don't know any tests from prior tales

Chet: Oysters. I really liked that game and loved the swimming, And while I am at it would make DP not a test, it confuses the issues.

McArine: I'm tempted to say Oyster Catcher, but I'm going to say Prismatic Opticon, I really liked that Art test, and how creative you could be with the test. I'd so like to recreate my X-Wing from T3 ;-)

LuluDivine: Since real life can affect how people react to things, are you willing to consider RL facts before thinking of banning? If so, how far into a person's personal life are you willing to delve to find out what might be causing their actions?

Chet: Hmm Everything is situational. In general not very far - suggesting a nice long break would seem to come before a forced one tho.

Zhukuram: Yes RL can and does affect how people play and react - everyone has a bad day but even so, I am not a counselor for anyone's RL issues. I am just a player like anyone else. If it crosses the proverbial line then it doesn't matter. This may not be the right game or the right time for that person. Compassion and Understanding are a given. But do not prevent a ban from being given.

McArine: I'm not willing to delve far into a persons RL problems. A DP is not a counciller, if people are having problems in RL, they should get them fixed in RL. They should definitely not bring them into the game, and start ruining other players experiences.

Skyfeather: If, during a phoenix race, someone lit a -str incense at CSs and pinned certain racers down with bricks to prevent them from winning, would you consider this griefing, and how would you handle the situation?

Chet: Sounds like its within the game rules to me. None of my business.

Zhukuram: yes I would consider that direct griefing provided the person was unaware that a race was happening. But the statement presumes that the person knows of the race and is impeding the other contestants in favor of somone else and that would be griefing.

McArine: I think this goes under "intentionally ruining the experience for other players" especially if it's to help a guildmate or an alt. And I think that would be enough for a ban. And you should use a -dex incense, to make them run slover off road ;-)

LuluDivine: Ninjas or Pirates, and why?

Chet: Pirates - I like parrots.

Zhukuram: I want both - arrrgh with a samuri sword and a parrot

McArine: Pirates, because they don't mind you can hear them coming, AAAARRRGGG

LuluDivine: Do you feel DP has become a girl's club? Has egypt become sexist against men?

Chet: wow, never thought about it before - could be. Haha

Zhukuram: well ... how can u tell who's typing or behind an avatar? (ex: in SWTOR @70% of the avatars are male and 30% are female but the player ratio is nothing like that. So I think DPs are of some gender but I don't know which one

McArine: I hadn't noticed that we had only voted girls in, and I don't think is has, or that it has become. I guess it's another reason for me to become a DP ;-)

Skyfeather: Follow-up from earlier question: Zhukurum, since you think it's griefing, how would you have handled the situation. For McArine: A perma-ban seems like a rather severe step for a first infraction, are there any other, lesser punishments you might try first?

LuluDivine: Skyfeather's question is a follow up to the phoenix race/incense question from before.

Zhukuram: re: deliberately setting off negative stat incense solely to block players from progressing in an activity would be banable. If there are lesser time-outs I would give those first (maybe a week off) but if all I have is a full ban then the incense player gets the stick.

Skyfeather: DPs do, in fact, have the ability to ban temporarily (trust me, I know)

McArine: Well we have not made any laws for lesser punishments, so I would have no access to any other. If we had access to time limited bans, I would in most cases use those first. And this could be one of those cases. It again depends on how the "infraction" executed.

LuluDivine: It looks like that's all our questions for this group of candidates! Thank you three for taking the time to participate in this debate today, and for giving such thoughtful answers to the questions!

LuluDivine: Please tune in again tonight for the second group of debaters, Osidion and Dreasimy!

McArine: You're quite welcome, and thanks for all the questions :-)

Zhukuram: thank you for hosting the debate! and good luck to all the DPs at the voting booth - here's to a full draw across the board

Chet: Good night all. And do you civic duty vote. Even if its not for me.

Kalmkitty: there are no more temp bans?

LuluDivine: As a followup, I have checked my superpowers, and I do indeed appear to have the ability to ban for 1) a day 2) a week 3) a month and 4) permanently. I believe using any one of them 'uses up' one of a DPs 7 bans though.

Kalmkitty: thanks

April 17, 2012 Debate #2 Dreasimy & Osidion

LuluDivine: Welcome to the second DP Debate of the 4th Election of Tale 6! Our candidates for this debate are: Dreasimy and Osidion. We will be starting with some standard questions, and some questions submitted by players over the last few days. If you would like send a question (new or followup) for the candidates to answer, simply send it to me in private chat, or ask it in this channel, and I will post it through at the appropriate time. All commentary on the debate, as well as general 'Worship Station' chatter, should occur in L2PBS instead of here, though.

LuluDivine: We're going to start off with some basic 'get to know you' questions, then move to more substantive ones, then finish with the fun/weird/crazy questions, as well as any new audience questions that come through.

LuluDivine: For those who have never had the opportunity to interact with you before can you share a little about yourself and/or what you enjoy about ATITD and how long you've been playing?

Dreasimy: Ask me your questions! I am not afraid!

Osidion: Ladies first :D

Dreasimy: I've been playing since Tale 1 (though I took tale 5 off) and what first grabbed me about ATITD and kept me around is the small and unique community. It reminded me and still reminds me of the kind of community we had in my first MMO (though it wasn't very massive) NWN on AOL back in the (gasp) 90s. My most favorite things (in game) are wine, and tests with words in them (Venery, Formal Garden, Sphinx...) because I like to write in real life where I live with Ay and our 3 kids er... I mean cats, we have cats

Osidion: I am a 45 year old male from Florida currently working at a local Purina dealer. What i enjoy the most about ATITD is the community aspect of the game. I have been playing since T2 (a little over 8 years i'd say).

LuluDivine: There are a variety of points of view on what the role of DP should be, what is yours?

Dreasimy: At the most basic level that hopefully everyone can agree with, the role of DP is someone who actively participates in the game but is responsible and can maintain a calm state of mind even when presented with a very tense situation. The ability to perma-ban folks should be wielded, or caretaken as the case may be, by someone who makes good decisions in the heat of the moment.

Osidion: As i see it the main role of a DP is to try and settle griefing disputes.

LuluDivine: What distinguishes you as a DP candidate over the rest?

Dreasimy: I think throughout the debate there are some questions that will show a difference in how I might fill the role of DP compared to my fellow candidates. Whether or not that approach is a better approach Egypt will decide, hopefully after tuning in or reading the debate.

Osidion: I really don't think there is any one aspect that distinguishes me over anyone else (DP candidate or not). People that know me would say that i am a totally honest person (at least i hope that's what they are saying :P)

LuluDivine: What have you done, or what do you plan to do, to benefit Egypt as a whole?

Dreasimy: I have organized a variety of player run events over the years the most recent one I was involved in was Project Bunnyway which seemed to be well-received. I guess when you look at the society as a whole this sort of thing that operates outside of the structure of the tech tree, and the test passes and the end game would be considered fluff but I'd argue that it's fluff that promotes camaraderie and fun, which ultimately builds a stronger community.

Dreasimy: Aside from that and the usual research and help on big projects where I can, I have adopted the causes of DP Elections, Debates and Ballots and I endeavor to make sure they are documented on the wiki for generations to come.

Osidion: I don't have spicific plans for any Egyptwide projects i would hope that my play style as a whole would benefit Egypt even in a small way :D

LuluDivine: Have you played ATITD under other names in this tale or past ones, and if so, what were the names you played under?

Dreasimy: I've always been a Dreasimy (barring tale 5 which I didn't play) plus Ay and I have either inherited or created some mules over the years, which I've certainly logged in as. This tale their names are Apep and Nebet.

Osidion: No, i've always played as Osidion (Please, call me Osi :D).

LuluDivine: In other tales DPs elected at the beginning of the tale leave before the game end. This leaves a vacumn at the end game when they are needed the most. What is your committment to the game and how will you manage to last the entire tale?

Dreasimy: While I can't see the future, I intend to continue to be active and play though the end of the tale and see the next one begin. My track record on this is fairly consistent. I did leave near the end of tale 4 due to some out of game reasons that kept me from the game through tale 5 but I didn't leave with commitments outstanding. I guess doing those events help keep me around, I can't stop doing them even tho I keep saying "I'm not doing that anymore" they just keep happening! :D

Osidion: I am totally commited to the game and in the 8 years of playing i have only taken 2 breaks from the game (mainly due to burnout). I limit my playing now to unsure i don't burnout.

LuluDivine: How would you handle it, as DP, if you were involved in an interpersonal conflict with another player?

Dreasimy: As with any conflict I'd simply try to come to a mutually beneficial resolution but if it became apparent that it was getting heated or escalating I would ask another DP or another mutually acceptable party, to mediate for us so my bans were not an unbalancing factor in the equation.

Osidion: I would differ my dispute to the other DP's. However, in a non DP role i would try to settle the dispute myself.

LuluDivine: Have you been involved in resolving conflicts in ATITD and/or real life? Can you give any specific examples of how you have helped mediate a situation between two parties who could not see eye to eye?

Dreasimy: I have resolved some conflicts in ATITD, such as disputes over camps being built too close and miscommunications. My method is listening, acknowledging each sides' issue(s), suggesting a solution, and if it's not acceptable, rinse/repeat. I have helped convince someone to tear down a swastika compound (in tale 4) through simply chatting them (I wasn't the only one to chat them of course). I have helped people move or recover mats in the case of a conflict over 'land'. Each case is individual.

Osidion: Thankfully i have had or been involved in very few disputes in or out of game (i like a drama free life). The only disputes in RL i have mediated were between my wife and stepson, and in that i could make them both see "the whole picture"

LuluDivine: Often disagreements in ATITD come from miscommunication, miscommunication can be battled by discussion but sometimes discussion can become heated. Are you in favor of free speech? Do you have an opinion on whether or not discussion should be censored when it gets heated?

Dreasimy: I am in favor of free speech and think it should be censored as little as humanly possible. I support the current rules we use in modding the L2PBS and Bazaar mics.

Osidion: I do believe in free speech and i believe censure should only apply in under 18 channels.

LuluDivine: Under what types of circumstances do you believe DPs should use permanent bans? If you are versed in ATITD lore, feel free to give an example from a previous tale where you agreed or disagreed with a ban, if you can't give examples from the past feel free to just discuss the merits of certain situations over others.

Osidion: I believe a perma-ban should be used if someone is sexually harrassing or demeaning to other players. I would concider a perma-ban if someone purposefully kicked all other elders from a guild just to teardown the guild denying others access to to the stuff they built or helped to get.

Dreasimy: I have agreed with bans this tale and in the past that were for griefing for griefing's sake. Also I agree with previous bans where people have been destructive and unremorseful and/or unwilling to repair/replace their damage (either to guilds/chariots) or are unwilling to discuss their situation with a DP (this would lead me to wonder what is about to be destroyed next, such as with Richter in Tale 5 though I was not there for this one, I have only read about it in the logs and on the wiki where I could.)

LuluDivine: How would you handle it if a close personal friend or guildmate made a complaint, or had a complaint made against, seeking your intervention as DP and possibly a ban?

Dreasimy: If a close personal friend was either a complainant or the subject of a complaint to a DP I would make sure DPs were aware that I was removing myself from the pool of potential DPers for the situation due to my close friendship and that one of them was available to handle it in my stead. I'd explain to the person who had potentially asked for my intervention why I was handing it off.

Osidion: It would not matter if it was a close friend/guildmate or anyone else in Egypt, the trust placed in me remains the same and as DP i would do my best to settle the dispute.

Dreasimy: I'd add that I'm assuming there would be other DPs that could fill this role. Were that not the case then I would certainly perform my role.

LuluDivine: In light of the AGA, do you feel that there's a meaningful role for the DP? Won't every DP submit every ban consideration to the public vote, and everyone vote for any DP they trust to do so?

Osidion: Well being as the AGA was written for DP's to start an instant ballot, is'nt that a meaningful role for a DP? Hopefully if you have made DP then you already have Egypts trust :D

LuluDivine: Follow up question for Osidion: Are you suggesting that the primary role of the DP is now to submit AGA ballots? Or do you see the DP role as larger than that?

Dreasimy: Definitely there is a role for the DP. There are good and specific conditions for AGA and also a need for a DP who is able to step in when there is immediate damage or harm occurring that would require a decision in the moment and not the period of time even the quickened AGA ballots take.

Osidion: I see the DP's role as much larger that that, however the AGA wass written so the DP would have an alternate option

LuluDivine: If a person were submitted as a griefer under the AGA, and egypt voted AGAINST banning them, but you still felt they should be banned, would you? What if the general consensus of the rest of the DPs were that that person should not be banned, but you felt strongly that they should? Do you intend to make decisions unilaterally, or in concert with your fellow DPs?

Dreasimy: I would consider banning them in spite of a failed AGA if I had additional information than was known or included at the time of the AGA ballot. If the rest of the DPs all felt that a person should not be banned but I felt they should and I was NOT personally involved in some way, then I would probably have to do the ban and take the consequences. I intend, despite the previous statement, to fully make decisions in concert with fellow DPs whenver possible, and I would go there first not last.

Osidion: Egypt has been known to over throw a DP ban, so as i see it we are here for the people. Also i believe the All the DP should be involved in any perma-ban. I would go in concert with the other DP but would make my feeling known if it was different.

LuluDivine: Please describe what you consider to be "Griefing" and what actions would cause you to submit someone's name up for exile-by-vote using the Anti- Griefing Act.

Osidion: I will repete my previous statement... I believe a perma-ban should be used if someone is sexually harrassing or demeaning to other players. I would concider a perma-ban if someone purposefully kicked all other elders from a guild just to teardown the guild denying others access to to the stuff they built or helped to get.

Dreasimy: Well the most obvious form of griefing is someone like Geodude who goes around actually identifying their actions as griefing with statements like, If you don't do X I will do Y to your camp. I think at one point he even stated in regional or IRC or both that he was griefing, on purpose. I would concur that a lot of greifing has to do sometimes not so much with their actions but with the intent behind their actions and that can often be determined through their own words.

LuluDivine: We have a follow up question/comment re: reversing of bans.

Nchanter: Osidion, DP bans are *not* reversable. While Egypt did choose to strip the powers of a DP, Teppy was very clear that the Bans could not be reversed.

LuluDivine: Does this information change either of your answers, Osidion and Dreasimy?

Dreasimy: Not my answer :D

Osidion: That was a misstatement Nchanter, thank you for pointing that out, what i should have said was with the AGA Egypt can now ban by ballot(with the instagation of a DP), however the second part stands, we ARE here for the people :D

LuluDivine: Does anyone have access to login to your account? (ie, would any person other than yourself ever have access to your ban powers)?

Dreasimy: While Ay and I have shared passwords in the past, he's accepted the fact that I have my own password now and he has to spouse log to use me. It's less stuff for him to remember anyways so he's not too upset about this development :D

Osidion: Yes, but like a DP, i have total trust in the person NOT to use me in that way.

LuluDivine: If you were not in the election and forced to vote, which candidate would you vote for?

Dreasimy: Oh at this point I am leaning toward Osidion but our debate isn't over yet.... :D (P.S. I completely trust Ay not to use me in *that* way either!) :D

Osidion: Well for "this" DP election i have 2 answers based on past experience and the would be Dreasimy or McArnie :D

LuluDivine: If you had to vote for one person in ATITD to be supreme leader, with power over all the other DPs, and unlimited bans, who would it be?

Dreasimy: The people who come to mind are all people who would absolutely not want this power, or any power probably. But based on who I have had the chance to get to know the best I think, and who I think has a fabulous moral compass, would be Hekatef.

Osidion: Again, based on past experience i'd vote for Rabble as supreme leader :D

LuluDivine: It's really a shame he's not on to comment on that. :)

Dreasimy: Rabble was a close 2nd ;)

LuluDivine: If you had the power to change one aspect of this game, what would it be, and why?

Osidion: About the only thing i'd like to see change is Teppy's devotion to this game, it could be Soooo much better then IMO :D

Dreasimy: Oh! I think if I had more time to think about it I may come up with something else but on the fly I am thinking of how much I like Conflict tournaments and how I wish we could do them whenever we wanted, like player run conflict tourneys. I wish Wepwawet was open all the time so we could do this and that there was a way to make ladder tournaments and stuffs! :D

LuluDivine: What test would you get rid of, and which test would you bring back, and why?

Osidion: I'd get rid of Cartouche (THAT test causes too much conflict amongst friends), i have no opinion about bringing a test back.

Dreasimy: Well Darkest Night is certainly a thorn in my side, I find it, well... so time consuming to be unfun and I'd be happy to have Oyster instead since I did really enjoy the putting in the pearl mastermind puzzle it had (it allowed me to have a little chart for that, I miss that little chart.) I miss some other stuff too, conflict as I mentioned but it's hard to imagine losing a whole discipline now.

LuluDivine: And now we will have a few questions from this morning's debate.

LuluDivine: Rabble: I have a question: Why do you want to be DP? It seems like a lot of work and aggravation. Do you just like passing tests? Is it ego? Do you want to block other people who you think will make bad DPs? Do you have an enemies list and want paypack? Are you just bored with game?

Dreasimy: I honestly forget that DP is even a test sometimes, I am not focused on DP for that reason at all and am happy to not pass it. I actually participate in DP because I think it's important and I do believe I would actually make a fairminded DP and serve the role well so I am here because if Egypt thinks I would make a good DP too then I am happy to serve as best I can.

Osidion: While i DO like passing test, i do not have any agenda towards banning people nor am I bored with the game, i just happen to be a good listener and an even better talker and i believe that those are 2 good qualities in a DP :D

Dreasimy: I havent passed DP before and I'm still happily pursuing my interests: wine, events, body tests, other assorted stuff that makes me go 'Ooo' :D

LuluDivine: Since DPs are exempt from being banned, do you feel laws should be implemented to govern how DPs do their job, since, as a great man once said, no person should be above the law? Dreasimy: I'm not sure what the law would do. We currently have a system for removing bad DPs and that is simply writing a law that removes their DP powers. So beyond that I don't see the need but I'm not necessarily directly opposed to it in theory given the generalness of the laws suggested, I'd have to see it.

Osidion: Correct me if i'm wrong, but i had heard that a DP could now be banned either on their last perma-ban or after, but i am not opposed to a law that governs DP in some way.

LuluDivine: Mod Note: My understanding is that once a DP has no bans left, they themselves can be banned.

LuluDivine: Since real life can affect how people react to things, are you willing to consider RL facts before thinking of banning? If so, how far into a person's personal life are you willing to delve to find out what might be causing their actions?

Dreasimy: Absolutely. And, wait, this isn't real? The veil between real life and not real life when you are talking to someone who married a guy she met in ATITD during Tale 1 is somewhat blurred. But anyway to answer you yes, sure.

Osidion: That would apply to the DP also so i'd have to say yes to considering a ban, however peoples lives should mainly be kept private.

LuluDivine: Lazybum: Would you find it acceptable to blow up the Tale2 monument of worship because the test of levened bread is utter crap?

Dreasimy: Nope I'd be against blowing up the monument, people worked hard on it. :)

Lazybum: well people worked hard on doing the LB test and its borked ... maybe blowing it up is the only way to get rid of a borked test =D

Osidion: No, maybe you should consider not doing Bread till it's fixed (IF it's broke) :P

LuluDivine: I do sort of wonder if blowing up the monument would even do anything to it...

Lazybum: it would make me feel better just trying

LuluDivine: Skyfeather: If, during a phoenix race, someone lit a -str incense at CSs and pinned certain racers down with bricks to prevent them from winning, would you consider this griefing, and how would you handle the situation?

Dreasimy: My personal take on this hypothetical situation if it happened in front of my face right *now* would be that I'd chat the person and probably ultimately say that I would suggest they not do the brick thing as the spirit of the game mechanics for sand were changed to avoid just this kind of griefing. So based on the spirit of that I would say it is out of bounds play (in fact so much so it might even go to GMs but who knows if they agree) but ...

Dreasimy: on the incense, even if it is done intentionally for an advantage in the test and to disadvantage others, I think in the end it is merely a competitive act, much like overbuilding in obelisk queues. The act in and of itself does not prevent anyone from passing the test, or even carrying on with that phoenix, it just makes it more difficult and I think that the person who uses the tactics will then have to live with the consequences of that moving forward and that is how our society handles this naturally

Dreasimy: The consequences would likely be that people in the community would probably shun them on some level I expect, but I guess they would expect that :D

Osidion: I don't consider that a major grief as you "could" just drop the bricks and eat a grilled pepper to raise str back up some. That is how i would suggest to someone.

Lazybum: To Dreasimy: So you would rather have a gm handle the situation rather than do it yourself. as part of it is skillfulplay with no reason for a gm to get involved is it is not thier grounds. Dp's get the power for a reason and it is to handle situations like this directly. GM's on the other hand are here to keep the CoC and fix /investigate bugs.

Osidion: or what i would suggest even*

Dreasimy: No, in the case of the bricks *only* I think that due to the way Sand is handled (you can't hand sand to people because people used to abuse it this way) and just replacing sand with bricks makes it more of a GM-type thing. Obviously something they have coded to avoid is all I am saying. However, thank you for letting me expand on this...

Lazybum: if not bricks it could be sheep/thread / pretty much anything so... would you rather have a pop up menu to recieve any items?

LuluDivine: The question about 'pop ups' is a game mechanic issue, and not really all that relevant to how the candidates would react as DPs...Let's keep it to that.

Dreasimy: gah just lost my response with backspace a moment please and no you misunderstand me I never said I wanted a popup for bricks

LuluDivine: Discussions about whether there can or should be pop ups for items given to you can take place on PBS.

LuluDivine: Anonymous follow up to Osidion: Not everyone has access to grilled peppers, or even pepper seeds. Are you saying that your response to those people would be 'oh well, your problem, just deal with it'?

Dreasimy: I too think it is pretty simple to drop bricks if handed them. I am not sure that it requires DP intervention. However, *if* in this grand hypothetical it is constantly happening and it is seriously impeding people's play, and the person in question has been asked not to do it by a DP and warned, then I would probably have to do a temp ban to have them think about if it is really worth it

Dreasimy: I'm not trying to dis the hypothetical here, but we are just getting really specific about something that has never happened, to my knowledge :D

Dreasimy: I like the hypothetical, Im anti brick and I'm indifferent to incense!

Osidion: That was an on the fly answer to a rhetorical question, If i was on and that happened i would bring them the pepper myself :D

LuluDivine: Do you feel DP has become a girl's club? Has egypt become sexist against men?

Dreasimy: I was hoping you wouldn't notice that... I mean no! Egypt is just voting in who they think is the best candidate, this question is sexist! Ya, that's it. :)

Osidion: I don't feel that way, maybe the girls have just been giving better answers :D

LuluDivine: Three great men sit in a room: a king, a priest, and a rich man. Between them stands a common sellsword. Each great man bids the sellsword kill the other two. Who lives and who dies?

Osidion: They all die and the sellsword keeps all the money :P

Archipelago: Power is an illusion, a shadow on the wall...and a very small man can cast a very large shadow

LuluDivine: Archipelago wins the debate

Dreasimy: Well, the sellsword lives for sure! He gets to decide who lives and who dies. He probably keeps alive whoever can get him the hottest chicks. Also, Winter is Coming n stuff...

Archipelago: Power resides where people think it resides

Osidion: LOL

Dreasimy: Hey he copied off someone else's paper!

Archipelago: lol

LuluDivine: What is your opinion on the use of bonfires to 'claim' clay patches, sometimes weeks before the raeli tech even opens? What is your opinion on 'counter bonfiring' to combat this?

Dreasimy: Yeah... so I am against bonfiring as a player. As a DP I would consider it not really my realm as it is within the rules and if you want to run around laying a bunch of bonfires pissing people off, it is not really my job to save you from yourself :D However I would personally recommend a politely worded sign instead :D

Osidion: Well that seems to have been a past tale problem as there are still many open clay patches this tale, however i'd say put it to law either as a game feature or striaght up law.

LuluDivine: Do you feel there should be a limit on how many avatars one person can run? How do you feel about players who run alt armies that macro constantly?

LuluDivine: To clarify: the rules currently allow as many accounts as you want, and macroing so long as it is not afk. If you could change the rules to be 'the perfect world', would you, and how?

Osidion: No, if a person can afford to do that them go for it, i personally don't use macros all that much again, go for it i say.

Osidion: There is no such thing as a perfect world, we have to choose how we live with what we do have.

Dreasimy: Well I think there likely won't or can't be a limit, not in our current technology/game/staffing situation. Should there be tho? Good question I can see it both ways. I see them as not being a problem if they are done within the rules because the problem would become one of where do you draw the line. But if it was a perfect world I created I would create retina scanning monitors that would identify you when you are looking at the screen and if you don't look at the screen every 5(?) minutes it makes you afk.

Dreasimy: I might have a different view if I spent some more time looking at some data that revealed some game balance issues but I haven't so I can't really say much more than I have

Dreasimy: Oh and retina monitors mean no more passwords! :D

LuluDivine: How do you feel about the fact that no one knows who all the GMs are? How do you feel about the fact that players who volunteer for event staff are anonymous?

Dreasimy: I've never really understood why Teppy uses the system he uses. It seems like the worst of both worlds. Keep the GM powers on people's player characters but don't make it obvious who those people are. I think the tried and true method is better. Obvious GM characters separate from player characters.. Whether or not I knew who they were at that point would be sorta irrelevant as their regular characters wouldnt have any special powers. But given the way we are currently set up I would prefer it to be more transparant who is which type of staff.

Osidion: I really don't see how knowing who all the GM's are as long as one is around when you need one, and again so what if someone wants to remain anonymous when doing events, is'nt that their perogative?

Dreasimy: I appreciate that people volunteer :) Im not asking for anything I wouldn't do if I was in their position. I just view it as real job, that is a volunteer job yes, but still a job that is in the customer service field and it's hard to give good customer service when you aren't accountable to the customers... but hopefully no one will take that personally. I just have a lot of strong feelings on customer service in the gaming industry as I used to do that :D

Lazybum: Yes or no question, please do not give a reason for or agianst. Would you ban someone that was intentionally griefing you/your friend?

LuluDivine: I'm going to modify that: you can give a reason or conditional statement

Dreasimy: No

Osidion: No, and i think we answered a similar question :D

LuluDivine: Ninjas or Pirates, and why?

Dreasimy: Ninjas - they fight a lot! (I think that's a line from an Oingo Boingo song.... maybe...oh that's Samurai.....) Ninjas! They are quiet and I have lots of headaches :D

Osidion: Ninjas, because they are stealthy and because i like Ninjas ;P

LuluDivine: How do you feel about the fact that there is no Akhet wheat, and how this makes certain worship tests more difficult?

Dreasimy: I'm sympathetic to those trying to do the worship discipline but sadly Im not a very worshipy girl so Im not in a very good position to advise :D If it's a bug, dev call it! If it's not then squeeky wheel approach could work I suppose :)

Dreasimy: I do try to pass one worship test so I can at least help with the monument though :)

Dreasimy: (at least one!)

Osidion: This goes back to a previous question about what i would change if i could, my answer is.. I don't particulary like it however with out Teppy or another Dev change/fix it there is not much that can be done :|

silver: why do we call "Q&A" sessions debates?

silver: followup to the same question: is there anything DPs would actually _debate_ on in true point/counterpoint style?

Dreasimy: I think we call them debates because they are an opportunity for debate. The format doesnt preclude us debating each other we often just have candidates that either just naturally prefer to focus on their own platform and not tear down their opponents or realize that if they did try to tear apart their opponent's positions they would be viewed as a less than ideal DP. I don't think it's a bad thing inherently, I personally would like to have my opponents and myself assessed on our own representation...

Osidion: I believe that these Q&A or debate sessions are more to "get to know" whom we are voting for. We can only answer the questions as presented to us.

Dreasimy: but when I moderate debates I'm open and encourage candidates to go after each other if they want to. They rarely do. The mod can't really force them to :D

silver: that's okay, I don't encourage peoplpe to go after _each other_, anyway. that's not a debate, that's name calling. debates are about positions and a good debater can argue a position they don't even believe in :)

Dreasimy: I didn't mean name calling when I said go after each other. I meant take a more aggressive style, be more involved in what the other person is asserting than just making your own assertions. It was just a phrase, not a very good one I guess :D

LuluDivine: It looks like that's all our questions for this group of candidates! Thank you two for taking the time to participate in this debate today, and for giving such thoughtful answers to the questions!

Osidion: Thank you Lulu for modding and i'd like to say Good luck to all the candidates :D

Dreasimy: Thank you LuluDivine for moderating *\:D/* And thanks Egypt for listening to both debates or reading the logs! :)

LuluDivine: Goodnight everyone! The debates can be read on the logs, or in a prettified wiki version I have yet to create!