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Demipharaoh Debates/2015 10
Back to Demi-Pharaoh Debates
Demi-Pharaoh results from 472 voters:
- Pascalito (47.40)
- merek (38.71)
- LuluDivine (37.67)
- toothless (32.10)
- Kuu (19.01)
- Afrah (18.96)
- Tempos (15.19)
Debate occurred on Monday, October 12th at 1:30 GMT.
Debate between Toothless, Pascalito, Tempos, merek, Kuu, Afrah and LuluDivine from October 12, 2015
Augir: Welcome to the First Debate for Demi-Pharaoh of the 7th Tale of ATITD! For the duration of the debate normal Egypt Today posts will be halted (please use Egyptian Exchange for comments and normal posting during this period) and only debate-appropriate posts will be let through.
Augir: Our candidates for this debate: toothless, Pascalito, Tempos, merek, Kuu, Afrah and LuluDivine!
Augir: Tempos unfortunately couldn't make it tonight.
Note: In uploading the debate to the wiki, GHawkins added Tempos' answers in
For start please tell us more about yourself, how long you've been playing etc. :)
Augir: While you are typing I'll quickly go over how we are running this...
Augir: I'll post a question ... each candidate will type response, I will post them all at the same time, and then a couple of minutes for follow-up or rebuttal or additional comment, before moving on to the next question.
Pascalito:Hello Fellow Egyptians! My name is Pascal D. (yes, my parents made me DP for life), Belgian, male, born in 1959, real life spouse of Ariella whom I met during Tale 4.
Pascalito:Being able to speak English, French, Dutch and some German turned out to be a great asset for DP office, which also was the main reason this time around for preliminary round mates to move me forward.
Pascalito:I have been an Egyptian citizen since Tale 3, when I lived in Sinai and the people elected me to be their Demi-Pharaoh since then.
Pascalito:Once again I offer my services to you all and still sincerely hope I never have to intervene in a single conflict. The ban stick never left my pocket, let's try to keep it that way!
Pascalito:My wife and I will focus on genetics as usual, already frantically preparing by picking thousands of mushrooms that are badly needed for crossbreeding, mutagenics and genome studies. Needless to say we are very happy to see crossbreedable veggies and a large variety of flax strains.
LuluDivine: I have played ATITD since the beginning of t4. My brother, Sigil, played starting in T1 - he got me into the game. I dragged my mother in (Pinger), and I met my now husband here (Skyfeather). I've also met some of my closest RL friends here. So, to say that I believe in, and am invested in, the community here is a signficant understatement. :D In T4 I co-managed a very large mentoring/newbiew/public works guild - Oasis. In T5, I was a member of a much smaller guild, but ran Lulu's tile emporium as well as helped manage the monstrosity that is the Test of Festivals, coordinating festivals every weekend, and helping manage the huge variety of producers of flowers, wine, beer, citrus, dyed linen, etc. In T6 I was an integral part of the FoA Raeli Project, which produced 56 raeli ovens turned to publid use, making available to anyone raeli tiles of every color produceable in all of Egypt.
LuluDivine: I have been DP twice, in T5 and T6. In T6, I wrote Anti Griefer Act, which provided a mechanism to quickly and effectively ban the obvious griefer GeoDude and his alts. That law has been pass again this tale, as a result of the resurrection of GeoGuy. In T5, before I was DP, I wrote a law (approved by majority vote) that stripped a then-DP of his DP powers because he had abused those powers in banning players which whom he had a personal conflict, solely on the basis of that conflict. I think these two events reflect the balance that a DP must maintain. In the vast majority of situations, a DP ban is inappropriate. It is an act of last resort, when the behavior of a player is categorically and undisputably damaging to Egypt as a community. Behavior that is merely unpopular, 'jerky', or generally frowned upon is not ban-worthy. However, holding to the 'defend to the death your right to say unpopular stuff' idea does not mean that we are held hostage to behavior that is solely for the purpose of destruction. Decorating someone else's camp with flax beds and woodplanes is not 'a legitimate play style' or a reasonable means of self-expression in Egypt that we need to protect. I believe strongly in the right of each player to define their own experience in a way that is most meaningful to them. There are limits to this right, though, when a players actions directly and significantly curtail someone else's ability to shape their own experience. The reality is, however, that ban-worthy levels of destructive behavior are rare. Most often disputes arise as a result of differing perspective - in this context, a DP can be a voice of mediation, to help bring differing (yet independently reasonable) perspectives to a common ground.
Augir: ** a lot of text, I will let audience read before posting more intro **
merek: This may sound sappy, but I love the game. I want other people to love the game, too. As DP I would do my best to continue to help build the community and encourage people to work together toward achieving common goals. I appreciate your time in reading the debate, and I humbly ask for your vote. Thank you. (merek of Sinai, Karnak, Saqqarah, Shabbat Ab, Taygete, and River Plains).
merek: As for DP experience, I was elected DP in T4 on the Bastet (my name was Verix there). Bastet was a great but very small community. The reason that I'd be a good DP is that I play in ways similar to most people--more of an "average Joe Camel" than a Rockstar. I can really empathize with people who might feel overwhelmed by the pace or complexity of the game.
merek: Hello, everyone. You might have said, "Who's merek?" when you saw my name on the ballot. That's not surprising. Although I've been around since beta of T1, I tend to keep a low profile. My style is more to work behind the scenes, whether that's helping organize a dig or acroline, collaborate on research, or helping neighbors overcome a difficulty.
Kuu: argh, let me fix the smartquotes in that, 1 sec
Kuu: I played Tales 1 through 3 and just returned for Tale 7. In the past, I spent a lot of my time working on wine, and beer to a lesser extent. I've made a bunch of great friends through ATITD, people I've kept in touch with on a daily basis even in the years since. I haven't dedicated myself too much to tests in the past, though DP has always been one of the most interesting aspects of ATITD to me. I've always enjoyed the discussions of what constitutes the “right” use of the powers. This time around was a lot of fun, I had some good discussions in both of my groups.
Kuu: I played Tales 1 through 3 and just returned for Tale 7. In the past, I spent a lot of my time working on wine, and beer to a lesser extent. I've made a bunch of great friends through ATITD, people I've kept in touch with on a daily basis even in the years since. I haven't dedicated myself too much to tests in the past, though DP has always been one of the most interesting aspects of ATITD to me. I've always enjoyed the discussions of what constitutes the "right" use of the powers. This time around was a lot of fun, I had some good discussions in both of my groups.
toothless: Hello. A lot of you may not know me, since i am new from last tales. In my short time here, i managed to be entrusted with the title of dp,also lead the monument of worship, ran festival guild for 2 whole year ,help vigil, made messenger test guild, helping many pass. I did most of my work late during the tale once most people had given up and left.With the small community left, we dragged this long tale to an end. I was entrusted with so much from the people who got to know after such a short time me and still support me to be their first dp, should say more about me than the short time i have been among you.
Afrah: In my real life, I'm a game developer, and this -- and you, the community -- have always been one of my influences.
Afrah: I love this game, and its uniqueness. I keep coming back to it, because there is so much to discover.
Afrah: My first telling was the beta before T1. I couldn't play for a while after that, but I was still quite interested in the game. I returned in late T2, and played in early T3. I played my heart out on T4 Bastet, but the underpopulation eventually killed us all.
Augir: Thanks for introductions, sorry about missclick
Kuu: :)
Augir: We have 9 questions for now, after 30 min or so I will start posting questions from our audience.
Q1, DustiTwiter: Have you played in any other tales and become DP, and even if not, What makes you trustworthy to hold a ban and not abuse it?
Augir: omg Dusti is gonna kill me.. of course its a question from DustiTwister
Augir: candidates didn't see the questions, they have 1-2 min to formulate response
toothless: I have been dp in tales 6 , i have been responsible with my bans, even speaking strongly against people using or wanting to use theirs. ban is a last resort and should not be used lightly. we are all here to have fun together, there is plenty of way to make it hapen without removing someone from the game .
Kuu: I've never been DP before, but I think those who know me can tell you that I've always had consistent and strongly-held views on the ban and its use, even since Tale 1. I think there's no greater responsibility than having that privilege, and I take it very seriously. Ending someone's time in the game is a horrible thing to do and something we should all strive to avoid (even if it is on rare occasions necessary so as not to ruin the game for others).
merek: As I mentioned in my intro, I had the honor to be elected DP on Bastet. I've played since T1 and have had various positions of trust throughout my years playing.
Pascalito:I guess I can fully refer to my intro for tale presence. Not having used the ban in all that time shows I will not abuse it.
Lazybum: Question: Anon O Mouse =D would you ban someone without first talking to them?
Pascalito:Innocent question from Dusti, no worries Augir :)
Afrah: While I have played in a variety of other tales, I have never been DP, as of yet. However, I have been an administrator/developer in other games, with the power to ban people. I had to use it, sometimes. Regretfully, sometimes, the people I had to ban were my own friends. I understand that bans cause collateral damage. I understand the social consequences. I understand that it can leave a wound. I believe in making responsible and empathetic choices with that power.
LuluDivine: As mentioned above, I have been DP in two prior tales, t5 and t6, and have never used the direct ban power. I honestly cannot recall at this point whether I put any of Geo's alts up for the vote-ban, or whether they were all put up by Kuupid. I am deeply committed to the idea that the ban is an act of absolute last resort, and have shown that to be my position through two tales. Most conflicts can, and should, be solved through other means. Only the most extraordinary activites truly merit an even temporary ban. Egypt contains within it's community a dizzying variety of playstyles and viewpoints, and there is room for all of these to co-exist.
LuluDivine: Before I was ever made DP, I spear-headed the movement to *remove* a DP from power for abuse of power, and wrote the law that would eventually accomplish that goal. I stand by that act, and I think it shows clearly my position on the limitation of powers that is appropriate for the role of DP.
Augir: ok, anyone want to do follow up?, one min for that
DustiTwister: just let it be known, i asked that the other day, before ya'll had a chance to intro yourselves. =) I also want to know, what your view on the current griefing going on in 7L is, how you plan to deal with it?
merek: If you're referring to Geoguy, I think the decision has been made. I have talked to some of the affected parties here in RP and in my opinion this behavior warrants use of the DP ban. If you're referring to some other incident, I would need more information before making a comment.
LuluDivine: Great question, Dusti. The griefing going on in 7L is an unfortunate situation of 'same story, different Tale'. We've all been here before. This exact situation is the very thing that prompted me to write the Anti Griefer Act in the first place, and I absolutely intend to use it to put the griefer (and his alts) up for the ban. The law will not only allow Egypt to express their unified disapproval of the griefing, but will (much more importantly) allow for the immediate cleanup of the mess that he made.
LuluDivine: I still believe that we need an alternate solution for the future, one that will be viable *not only* after more than a month of the Tale, but rather a solution that is available to us from the very beginning of a telling, until such time as that long-term solution is found, the Anti Griefer Act will efficiently accomplish the most important goal - getting the griefer gone, and cleaning up the detritus he's left in his wake.
Pascalito:I would first of all talk to the griefer, absolutely without any nastyness or anger, make him/her think about his/her actions and ask about intentions. Pointing out consequences towards relationships with fellow Egyptians is the next step. Banning would only be absolute last resort after warning about that possibility. If it needs to be done, after consulting public opinion thoroughly, so be it, even though I would totally hate it.
Kuu: Assuming you're referring to Geoguy/Geodude, I have issues with the AGA (specifically not outlining the reasoning why the person should be banned), but it seems like an effective tool to use for the rare situations where we have clear and undeniable briefing with no other possible benefit, and especially in this case because it's been used effectively in the past against him.
toothless: The greifing in 7l is a bit of a problem. as all he want to do is cause drama. and even if we just go and ban him, his wood plane will remain where they are. On top of that he can just make another toon and keep plastering the place with them. What i think is the best way to handle it is to make a law helping us to deal with the thing a greifer construct, so even if they make another toon and make more, they will just be removed quickly and not have to go trough dpa and wait 2 month to remove.
Afrah: I would also like to do what we can to get things cleaned up in a timely manner (though I have concerns with the current Anti-Griefer legislation that I may have a chance to talk about later).
Afrah: If I become DemiPharaoh, I intend to ban Geoguy. He has clearly demonstrated (repeatedly, across multiple tales) that he has no intention of reforming.
Afrah: Followup answer to Dusti: I was anticipating that one of the later questions would address this.
Afrah: Full disclosure: I may not be an impartial judge of Geoguy, since I was one of the people he woodplaned. That said, I think that I have the support of most of the people of Egypt on this one. As DP, it will be rare to encounter such a straightforward, unambiguous case.
LuluDivine: This is also a great time to point out that the Anti Griefer Act was originally written the way that it is for a few other reasons: 1) the griefer was notoriously difficult to physically find/catch up to/click on, and we were told that GMs were absolutely not allowed to assist us in any way to accomplish the ban. This created a ridiculous Wile E Coyete chase to accomplish the task. 2) It was not at all clear that we were capable of executing a 'player ban' or IP ban. As such, it was a concern that the griefer might simply return again and again in difficult avatars, until such time as all existing DP bans were used up.
Augir: thanks!
Tempos:I started playing in Tale 1 and played until Tale 3, as Ryhiad. I have come back after missing Tales 4 to 6. I was not a DP in any of the tellings I had played previously. As for trustworthyness, I feel most people in this community would be able to be trusted with the DP power. I think there are only a rare few that would intentionally abuse the DP power. Aside from the fact that I would never want to hurt my own reputation within this community, I also play with my mother (Jeslyn) and would never do anything to draw negative attention her way and ruin her experience in the game.
Tempos:As well, in my last group, Kalmkitty, a previous DP, helped me pass on because they claimed I had a great grasp of what it means to be a Demi-Pharoah. Support from a previous DP was a wonderful thing to get and helped me believe I really could be a great DP.
Q2, Anonymous: How many accounts do you have access to?
Augir: For the duration of the debate normal Egypt Today posts will be halted (please use Egyptian Exchange for comments and normal posting during this period) and only debate-appropriate posts will be let through.
Augir: I would like remind to everybody our format..
Augir: Boards can hold only 24 posts and we have 6 candidates responding with mutiple posts, please use Egyptian Exchange
Pascalito:FYI, I was the first ever (in T4, Falcon's Bay, now CotS) to be griefed by Geodude.
Kuu: Just the one.
Afrah: I have one account. When the Test of Marriage passes, I will be marrying Snoerr, and will (based on the mechanics of that test) have access to his belongings and account.
toothless: only my own and of course spouce once we got wedding
merek: I have access to my own account and to no others. No one has access to my account at the present time nor do I plan to share my password with anyone. After the Test of Marriage becomes available, my spouse will have spouse access to my account.
Pascalito:I have access to 5 accounts (spouse and our alts). I would also point out that I would never, no exceptions, give my password to another physical person and same goes for Ariella, we share that point of view.
LuluDivine: I have access to my own account, my alt, and my husband's account. I have on rare occasions been asked to log into a friends account to accomplish a task, but generally passwords are changed afterwards.
Tempos:Just my one account. No alts or access to anyone elses account.
Q3, Balthazarr: Since many of you have played for many tales I am curious who was your first mentor and what did they do to help you to become so in love in this game that you have now played for so long? Is there any particular attribute or skill they imparted upon you that really sticks in your memory?
Afrah: Er, I don't even remember what my OWN name was, in the beta before T1. Pharaoh watched me grow flax, but he didn't give me any guidance, so he does not get credit for that. :-D
Afrah: In T2, TheMazeEcho was very supporting and helpful, and we are fortunate to still have him with us today.
merek: Back in T1 beta I joined the Lost Ones of Egypt. Phrotoch was one of the elders. He helped me to learn the game and encouraged me to succeed. I think it was the analogy of teaching me to fish rather than giving me a fish. Back during that time, there were so many helpful people that it's hard to name them all (it was also a really long time ago).
toothless: This is a hard question to answer, so many people helped me when i started that if i picked just one i think quite a few would be hurt. What i liked about the game was the comunity, the fact that i had so many mentore come from the fact everyone is willing to help you when you have question, i really like that about the game. and i try to add that to my own play style and try to help as many people as i can
LuluDivine: Oh that's interesting! While my brother Sigil introduced me to the game, I'd have to say that my first real mentor in T4 was Shayra. She was rocking it running what would later become Oasis, and she really took me under her wing! I learned a ton from her, not only about the game mechanics, but also about managing a huge guild of tons of people, how to provide mentoring for others, and how to direct large projects with maximal efficiency. She has always been remarkable at cheerleading the efforts of dozens of people and generating a ton of positive energy in a group. Eventually, she and I became a team running Oasis, but she really helped me find my feet! Guilding with her in downtown Meroe is a very fond memory. We accomplished so much in that guild, and I credit the vast majority of it all to her leadership.
Pascalito:I had no mentor, that was of my own choice. I wanted to discover the game step by step with the wiki up all the time and really understand the mechanics. Interaction with fellow Sinaites grew fast however and I was pushed into DP before I even realized, probably becoming the "noobest" DP ever after about 3 months of play. My early attention mainly went to quarrying, beer and wine.
Kuu: It's a funny question, I didn't really have a mentor in the traditional sense of someone who helped me right when I started. I started playing with a roommate and we joined a small guild, but we were all pretty much newbies and working things out together.
Kuu: Later in Tale 1 and into Tale 2, working with Qetesh and befriending her really led me to interacting with more of the populace and learning much more about the game (and we've been friends outside the game since). I think specifically seeing her working with others was definitely instructive, because she's always been productive both in the traditional hardcore gamer sorts of ways and in the more social aspects such as leadership.
Tempos:I wouldn't name one individual. I think it is the community as a whole that was my mentor and the main reason I love this game so much. It is amazing how mature and helpful the community is, considering all the other online games I have played. It is the friendly nature and helpfulness of the community that sticks in my memory the most and is how I try to be as well when dealing with others in Egypt.
Q4, Djehuty: What are your thoughts on an individual monopolizing a teach or resource, for example Silver Vein in T2, Raeli Ovens in T6, xxx tech/resource in T7? Do you feel there should be *any* limits on "ownership"?
toothless: That may be unpopular but i think if they put the work to build the stuff, they should be allowed to do with it as they please. and if these player then quit/leave the game and their monopolized items become just a bother for actual player, then that would be something else.
Kuu: I think it's definitely cruddy when those sorts of situations arise, and hopefully there can be reasonable discussions with the owners either for trading the buildings or the resources. I know it's difficult (and we may see that arise soon), but it seems to some extent unavoidable? I'd be curious to see people attempt to solve it legally but I imagine that would be awfully difficult except in the most specific and dire situations.
merek: We have a legal system in game to change the rules. If there are significant problems with monopolized resources, we have the ability to change that. If enough people feel the same way, the law will pass. If enough don't, then perhaps there needs to be discussion on how to work around the problems perceived. The DP should help in discussions like that, when asked.
Afrah: Great question! I'm not a fan of monopolization (and have been known to be quite vocal about this), but it's sure as heck not a bannable offense. That's just playing the game. Working-as-intended, as we say in programming. There might be social consequences, but everything we do in Egypt potentialy has social consequences, and Egypt has its ways of dealing with that. As for whether there should be limits on "ownership," I think that's best left up to our democratic system.
Afrah: Obviously, in the past, we have found it beneficial to clean up some objects. A banned person no longer really "owns" things, per se.
Pascalito:Those things are technically allowed, but whoever goes that way should realize there can be consequences in the way a portion of the population treats them or thinks about them. So it is their choice only, they are responsible for their actions and will have to deal with the results.
LuluDivine: There are many things in this game that are not possible, in any way, to own - the community access to those public goods is guaranteed. There are many other things that can only be produced through significant labor. While I think that there are many benefits to making the fruits of such labor publicly accessible or available, I don't personally think that that should ever be a requirement. In every tale there is some discussion of whether we should pass a law to make all mines public, or all raeli ovens, or something else similar. While I don't personally agree with these petitions, I find it very interesting that they never get passed by a majority of Egypt voters either. I generally think that it's in everyone's best interest for those who maintain private ownership of a rare good to be willing to trade it in the market, though, as that helps to ensure that goods are being put to their best use.
Augir: I am accepting follow up question on this, 1 min
Djehuty: followup: would you be for or against any type of legal options to limit ownerships? In *all* cases? Any exceptions?
Kuu: That followup seems pretty broad, I could certainly imagine a valid situation existing where a law's a reasonable response, but I would be pretty reluctant. It depends a lot on the situation and the people controlling the resource and how willing they are to work with others.
toothless: I would be against such law or action, if a person is unreasonable about their demand for acess the comunity will definitly treat them badly. but i will never support a law meant to strip someone from their hard work, at least not as long as they are actively playing the game.
LuluDivine: My guild often makes the vast majority of their efforts publicly accessible (as the overwhelming majority of our work is spent on opening techs for Egypt), but on occasion we do keep certain things private. Which things we make public and which we make private varies from telling to telling. In this tale, we have made public silver and titanium mines, after spending literally hundreds of hours dowsing in the early tale when food potency was still extremely low. Other metals, we've kept private. Last tale we had private mines also, but created 56 publicly usable raeli ovens that contained every color Egypt could make.
LuluDivine: It is hard for me to think of a law that limited private ownership that I would personally support. I suppose the only thing I can imagine would be a situation where one person/guild had the only access to a particular resource that was necessary for opening a tech or test, and they refused to open that test or tech anywhere in Egypt, for any price.
Pascalito:I honestly do not see it feasible to have no ownership at all. Imagine going around and taking whatever you want from any warehouse!
merek: Personally I am opposed to limits like that. In my experience they have been through the hard work of one or more people. After a time the monopolized resource often becomes traded once the "owner" has obtained what they need. That being said, I would defer to the opinion of Egypt's citizens in a ballot.
Afrah: I think I addressed this in my previous answer.
Pascalito:Anyway, I think a DP cannot do anything about that, it is something for laws to deal with.
Tempos:I personally prefer when individuals choose to share and work together, but I don't think players who don't agree with that line of play should be punished. As someone in a two person guild, with no alts, I appricate the larger guild that help people like me out by making public mines and other public spaces. There are people who put a lot of effort into finding rare resources though and I don't think they should be forced to make them public. I have always been a fan of giving individuals like that options or incentives to make things more public. For example, I loved the law in a past telling that allowed mine owners to take a percentage of the ore that others mined at their mines. Another idea would be to allow mine owners to set a cost to make their mines public for a set amount of time (ex: the mine owner could set a 100cc cost in exchange for the mine being made public to the payee for 30 minutes).
Tempos:I would like to make clear that I would never ban someone for not making their resources public.
Q5, Djehuty: What progress have you made in Mentorship and are you trying to become an Oracle of Leadership?
merek: I have started the test but not yet passed principles. I plan to continue to pursue all tests in the various disciplines, Leadership included.
Kuu: I haven't made any progress in Mentorship and to be totally honest, no, I'm not committed at this time to trying to become an Oracle. I know a lot of people want someone strongly dedicated to every aspect of the discipline, but I think DP first and foremost should be about the responsibilities given with the Test. I enjoy helping new players but I'm not explicitly dedicated to it day in and day out as some are.
Pascalito:The mentoring I do is currently focused on genetics, by the time that becomes available the mentor shrines have all been built. Unless a miracle happens, I will not pass Mentorship test. Oracle? Maybe! We have more than 7 Tests now:)
toothless: i do not have any mentor shrine, i never really ask for them either, i think if someone like what i do for them they will do so on their own. and oracle of leadership is not something i am going strong for. but the test of leadership are always fun to take part in
LuluDivine: I often view Mentorship as the test that should be passed by accident. I focus on trying to forge genuine relationships with people in ATITD, not for the purpose of obtaining the 'shrines' or 'scrolls' or whatever the current Mentorship chit is. If out of such a genuine relationship someone decides to dedicate a shrine to me, I will be honored and touched, but I can't see myself asking for such a thing. It feels transactional, in a relationship that should be anything but. While making Oracle of Leadership would be a lovely thing to achieve, it is not an active goal of mine.
Afrah: I have no progress in the Test of Mentorship. That's not why I mentor people. Mentorship is its own reward. I doubt that I will ever be an Oracle of Leadership.
Tempos: I currently do not have any mentor shrines, but plan to attempt to pass the test of Mentorship and all other leadership tests. I truly wish to see an Oracle of Leadership at the end of this tale. If I become DP but I am unable to complete all the other leadership test, I will do everything I can to help a fellow DP become an Oracle, so that we have one.
Q6, Feyth: How would you handle dispute with players that don't speak english?
Afrah: I would request help from a player who can translate, to avoid frustration for everyone involved.
Pascalito:We do mentor in many more evolved systems via Garden of Eden guild.
toothless: I am fluent speaking in both french and english, if the player do not speak either i would seek someone who do speak their language, if all else fail. google translate will do the job
Kuu: Very good question, I admit that I speak only English, and I would definitely have to seek out assistance from another citizen of Egypt who knew the language in question. I know language barriers have been a difficulty at times and resulted in conflicts that might not have arisen with a common language, so I'm sensitive to the issues faced by players whose English isn't so strong.
merek: Excellent question. Even for a dispute with players who speak French, which I have a bit of knowledge of, I would try to find someone able to translate. We have players speaking several different languages, and the fact that Egypt supports that is great.
LuluDivine: I would ask for assistance in translating from the players that I'm friends with (and that I trust) that speak the language of the person in question. Egypt has many players that speak multiple languages, so finding a trustworthy translator for support should generally not be a difficult matter, unless the language in question was extraordinarly uncommon in the Egypt community. As a last resort, I suppose I would invoke the almight power of google translate - but that would only be in a situation of absolute necessity, where no translator could be found!
Pascalito:Well, if they do not speak French, Dutch or German either, then 2 possibilities remain: ask another DP if they can help, use a (crummy) translating software and if that leads nowhere have a trusted friend translate for me.
Tempos: I believe a DP should be ready to handle an issue that comes up not only in the english community, but also the others. Due to this I actually voted for Azunar in my final DP round, as he speaks both French and English well (and seemed like he would be a great DP). If a french issue came up I would definately see if he would be willing to assist. Upon being elected DP, I would also work to find a german contact to have in case of a issue in their community. My wife, who doesn't play, also speaks some french and could likely assist me in a pinch.
Q7, Anonymous: You have all played more than one tale, please tell us if you have ever played a Tale from start to Amnesty and if voted as DP do you plan to play this Tale to the end?
merek: From the time I first started, I have played all the betas and tales from the start. I have not attended all the amnesties. Also there have been breaks from time to time where I have been unable to play. I don't anticipate any break like that occurring within the next year.
toothless: I have not , i joined tale 6 about half way trough, but i did stick with it to the verry end , as i said in my introduction. and i have a full telling prepaid, i love this game and i do not plan on going anywhere and looking forward to researching all tech in my home region 7L and more.
Kuu: I did play Tale 2 from start to Amnesty (admittedly with a few sparser months), and I started just a couple months into Tale 1 and played it until Amnesty too. That said, DP isn't going to necessarily change whether I play to the end, since we don't know when that is. If I happened to leave I would consider returning for the end definitely if my help was needed.
LuluDivine: It is difficult for me to remember the exact timelines of tales from many years ago. I believe that I played t4 and t5, if not to the bitter end, then to very very close to it. I will readily admit that I did not play the entirety of t6. Assuming this Tale progresses at the intended rate, I absolutely intend to play to the bitter end. I prepaid a full telling before the Tale began for that very reason!
Pascalito:I have played 2 from start to end, stopped 2 prematurely of which one was resumed later (one due to health issues, one due to uncooperative game management). In the current setting, with all our toons paid full tale and with very promising new leadership, only exceptional circumstances can stop me.
Tempos: I played Tale 2 from start to finish. Even if I am not elected DP, I play to play out this entire telling. I am having my first child in Decemeber (expected date is Dec 22), so I may take a small break around then, but I do intend to keep playing. In the case of an emergency where I can't make it back into game, I am sure my mother (Jeslyn) would let the community know.
Q8, Rehpic: Candidates, do you intend to nominate Geoguy and his accomplice (possible mule) Dumpster Shrimp for a ban vote under recently passed anti-griefing law?
Afrah: I have never played from start to end. I can't make any promises about playing THIS tale to the end (game development can eat your life, sometimes!). However, I have no intention of being elected DP, and saying, "I win," and riding off into the sunset. I have many goals that I would like to accomplish, this telling, and some of them are (hopefully) a heck of a ways off, yet, so I plan to be around for a while.
Afrah: Snoerr and I never got to do that orchestra performance we wanted to do.
merek: Based upon my current knowledge of that law, Yes. I would definitely review it again prior to taking action however.
Kuu: I haven't heard about Dumpster Shrimp, but yes, for Geoguy. I'll investigate what the situation is with Dumpster Shrimp and talk with him and those affected by his actions to determine what course to take there.
Afrah: Most of my concerns with the specific wording of the current anti-griefer law aren't an issue with Geoguy, but I'd re-read it carefully before making that decision. Either way, I would definitely ban him. I don't mind spending a ban for that.
LuluDivine: I do intend to talk to the griefer to ensure that it is, in fact, GeoDude from last telling, and that he is completely unrepentant and unwilling to remove his 'artful decorations'. And then, yes, I will absolutely submit his name for the AGA, so that we can finally remove his vandalism.
Kuu: I mentioned this before but I have issues with the AGA, I'm not crazy about it as a solution, but it seems reasonable in the case of Geoguy.
Pascalito:If the people of Egypt want me to, I certainly will do it. That is democracy, that is what someone in an elected office should do.
toothless: Definitively. this player have shown they have no interest in enjoying the game with us , only goal is to spark drama. erasing this kind of player from the game history all together would be the best way to make sure they do not come back as none of what they did had any efect, i have not heard of dumpster shrimp but if they have similar behavior , same treatment for them
Augir: I accept follow up questions from audience, 1 min
Kuu: Followup for Pascalito: How do you determine if the people of Egypt want you to do it?
LuluDivine: I also understand Kuu: has some concerns about the AGA, and I will readily admit that it is an imperfect solution, but I do think it's the best we can construct currently.
Skyfeather: Pascalito - How would you determine what the people of Egypt want? Would you submit his name to a ballot immediately to allow Egypt to weigh in?
Pascalito:There are many channels open for long talks, so the voices can be heard there without a problem, in multiple languages too, unlike what the laws often offer (pure EN).
MissBarbara: Is the idea with the DP not that we put *our* trust in *you*, for *you* to do what is best for Egypt, without having to ask us again? If not, then why not just write a law?
Kuu: I feel like loud voices are exactly a problem when we go off of public discussions. It's easy to get a skewed impression of what "Egypt" thinks as a result. Votes give you a much better idea of the actual opinion of the populace.
Pascalito:That said, if someone would like me to translate some of the debate, I'll gladly try. Our fellow Egyptians playing in a non-EN interface language may be felt horribly left out.
LuluDivine: What I would really love to see is a solution for the future, for the first month of the tale. During that first month we have absolutely no legislative ability, as it takes awhile for even the first law to be passed, and we have no DP to ban directly. So we are left completely powerless, and are forced to endure potentially limitless griefing for weeks. I think that's highly unfortunate, and very bad for the community of Egypt.
Kuu: MissB: Yes, write a law! it's bad for one person to have the ability to ban people! I think people forget that this test was not a gift, but rather a test to try to create strife. That was sort of Teppy's MO :)
Pascalito:The talk comes first, then a ballot should happen of course.
LuluDivine: One of the main purposes of the AGA was so that Egypt could speak, clearly, on the issue. Each person could be honest, and have their voice 'count'. There would be no question at the end of the day what the people truly wanted.
Afrah: It has loopholes and edge conditions that weren't thought out properly.
Afrah: MissBarbara: The legal system can sometimes be slow (especially when there's a lot of important legislation to push through). Sometimes, griefer situations can be rather urgent. If someone was going around angrily setting off explosives all over the place, I think we would want to act on that quickly. Moreover, if you write legislation to deal with all griefer problems, 1.) It becomes an arms race, and 2.) It's *hasty* legislation, and hasty legislation is often bad legislation.
Pascalito:Ariella is working on a law to avoid griefing. We hoped to have it implemented by the game devs before tale start even.
LuluDivine: Have the devs confirmed that they will implement a law that will actually carry over to a new tale? I know that was something we all discussed with Apophis the other night as a possibility, and one that I find very interesting, but I had not seen anywhere confirmed that this would be permitted?
Kuu: I don't think there was any confirmation. I think it would be good for Egypt but I'm skeptical the devs would support it ultimately.
LuluDivine: It was one of a handful of potential solutions to the 'first month griefer issue' that was discussed. A number of people were also opposed to carryover laws, or had concerns about them, so other solutions should also be hashed out.
Pascalito:I certainly wish laws carried over, after all we are grandchildren, why would a nation wipe out all laws in a timespan of 2 generations?
Augir: ok, moving on, Q/A from Audience after next question
Tempos: I have been keeping up with what Geoguy/Geodude/Geo____ is up to and even went into the Tale 6 wiki to research his banning last tale. We even had an individual in my last DP group who contacted him and advised us that Geo____ intends to act out until banned. I would definately nominate him for a ban under the new law.
Pascalito:I will answer with a question: do you have another solution? Same for many Art tests?
Afrah: I agree that historically, this has been an issue, at times.
Kuu: I don't think DP is really "leadership" to begin with, there's loads of things that take more leadership that aren't even the discipline (Vigils, just to give one example).
Kuu: As for "popularity contest", there's definitely an element of "Oh I recognize that name, I'll vote for him/her", which is unfortunate. But at the same time, people knowing your name and knowing who you are is just part of reputation, which absolutely should be figured into people's decisions, it's only reasonable.
LuluDivine: I wish that it weren't, but I recognize the reality that some people will vote in that way. While I am proud of my accomplishments in Egypt, and my general contributions to the community, I do not believe that the role of DP should be merely an award to be given out solely for one's 'accomplishments', popularity, etc, however. The role of DP should be manned by someone that is dedicated not only to Egypt, but to the concept of the position itself. I am extremely dedicated to (both in RL and in game) questions of the limitations of authority power, the boundary between the public good and private rights, and how we as a community can most effectively exercise self-governance. I believe that I have made significant contributions to the role of DP specifically, both by being part of the ongoing dialogue on those issues, and also through the laws that I have written (and that have been enacted) in multiple tales, as being DP in a few of them.
merek: DP is what the citizens of Egypt make it. It _can_ be a popularity contest. The position of DP is more like that of an arbiter or a judge than a president or king. We have no external relations with Mesopotamia, right? We need someone who understands the problems that players run into every day and can assist them in working through those. Communication is often the best solution. Many times disputes arise because of misunderstanding. As DP, I would try to help people communicate to solve their issues.
toothless: It does seems that way a lot, as dp the only power we hold is to ban 7 people.But people vote for people they like. but also people they know can do a good job and being responsible. after all if a dp is elected and end up doing bad thing, everyone who voted for them is also responsible for puting this person in that position.
Augir: and now questions from Audience, up to 30 min, is getting late :)
Tempos: I believe poplarity can be helpful in winning a DP election, but I don't think it is the only thing the community takes into consideration when electing a DP. Being popular is a sign that people like you and I think being the type of person people can like is a good quality for a DP.
cate: In my role as DP in T6 I occasionally came across immigrants who apeared to be scoping out the game for illegal purposes, such as using private chat for communicating deals. What are the issues for our community, how would you recognise this activity and what would you do?
Afrah: Scary Real World stuff is not the DP's jurisdiction. I'd talk to the game administration about that, if I thought it was going on.
Kuu: That's certainly not something I would have imagined. It seems like there would be far better mediums to use to communicate illicitly, to be honest. If I had serious reason to believe this was an issue, I'd inform GMs or devs. Unless they're in on it too, in which case I'd try to get them to cut me in in exchange for looking the other way
toothless: well if they use private chat, there is not a single thing us as dp can do to even know this is happening. i think it is more a thing related to the dev. there is not much for us to do about it really.
merek: That's an interesting question. I would definitely need more information before being able to address something like that meaningfully. By illegal, are you talking about things not permitted within Egypt, or are you talking about actual law-breaking offenses in the real world?
LuluDivine: I'm not sure how I would confirm that a person were using game private chats for potentially illegal purposes, until they propositioned someone who took a screenshot. As that strays directly into 'actually illegal by laws of the real world' status, I believe my only appropriate option would be to inform the game staff immediately and have them deal with the problem. From a legal perspective, it would absolutely be game staff responsibility at that point, and they would be the only people capable of confirming was going on in private chats that even a DP would not have access to.
Pascalito:cate, I have absolutely no clue what kind of activity you mean. I certainly hope I would recognize something fishy after all those years.
Tempos: I would report the activity to a GM or someone else in charge if I felt it was fishy activity outside of the spirit of the game. I don't think this would be a DP issue.
wickeddelite: In the future would you want to push the game more toward encouraging players to compete against each other, or more toward eliminating sources of conflict and drama between players? IMO the game has long been a somewhat dysfunctional compromise between these two positions.
cate: talking about drugs, at least that is what I suspected at the time
merek: As DP we have no jurisdiction over that sort of thing, but everyone as players has the ability to report suspected illegal activities to the authorities. Unless it's something life-threatening, I'd go through Pluribus first.
Kuu: re: drugs, If any users want to contact me later, I can hook you up. I have Velvet Nightmare, Emerald Freakout, Foie Gras Nachos, you name it.
Afrah: wickeddelite: I think that the tension between these two things is wholly intentional in the design, and working-as-intended.
toothless: i think there is place for both play style. and strong competition does not have to create drama. unless there is sore loser. but for that there is no magic potion. as dp we are usualy called to help settle disagreement or help 2 party come to an agreeable solution.Someone being upset about having been overbuilt as an obelisk or losing at tower. not much can be done beside a patt in the back and telling them to keep trying
Kuu: re: wickeddelite's question: Oh, I'm absolutely all in favor of cooperation but I think there's plenty of fun to be had in the competition aspect of the game. Certainly much of the playerbase enjoys it, I can't imagine the idea of swinging the pendulum so far towards cooperation that competition is eliminated, I think it would drive great players away. A happy medium is really ideal.
LuluDivine: Widkeddelite, I think the game only functions as an interesting community when an appropriate *balance* between competition and compromise is made. I think that perhaps in the past there has not always been this balance - Teppy was often overly focused on generating not just competition, but out-and-out contention, drama, and strife. I'm a big fan of friendly competition, and think that friends can compete against one another in many situations to the benefit of all competitors. If ATITD had no competition at all, for anything, then I honestly think the game would lose a great deal of character.
Pascalito:The 2 positions make this game unique. Example: work together and make "obelisk queues" or just try to be big and brave an compete - both are allowed, it is up to the community to figure out what they prefer to do, conflicts of interest will happen obviously. Those not interested in the drama do not have to read the "drama chats". Another example: seize bureau. Again, people will be responsible for the result of their actions.
Tempos:I prefer a cooperative game over a competitive one myself, but don't think people who enjoy a competitive game are wrong. I would encourage individuals to work together where they can and enjoy the competition in tests where it is unavoidable.
Steel: What has been your FAVORITE accomplishment in-game (Test, guild, personal, anything?) throughout all the tales played?
merek: Balance between cooperation and competition is a tricky thing. When we started back in T1, almost no one knew each other. Now it's like a class reunion, so the levels of cooperation and competition have changed.
Kuu: Providing wines and beers for banquets in Tale 2 was a lot of fun, very rewarding. And I've actually been having a lot more fun this telling with Cicadas than I did previously, I'm enjoying the Body discipline much more now than I did in years past (to my guildmates' consternation since I'm never at camp ;)
Kuu: But the other thing I'd mention was making good friendships attending the first two playermeets. We forged some great bonds that exist to this day and I'm so glad I met everyone there.
toothless: my favorite acomplishment is to have been in charge of the worship monument last tale.Also runing the festival guild for so long last tale and having been asked to do so again this tale and i am looking forward to working with everyone interested in festival again (shameless plug here)
merek: My favorite accomplishment is the friends the I've made. There are too many to name individually, but I'll mention my current guild, Nothingbutt's Hand (say it fast), and my old buds from Sinai in the old days. DKR!!
Pascalito:I can think of 2 that stand out, both linked to genetics: making a sea lily giant x23 and making sea lilies in all 125 possible colors (color wheel), both in tale 5.
Pascalito:Of course 1 is unbeaten: meeting my wife!!!
LuluDivine: I think my favorite accompishment in game was the Raeli Project of T6. A few friends and I set out to map the color map of Egypt, understand how it functioned, and lay an oven for every color that Egypt was capable of producing, then turn them all to public use. It was weeks, if not months of work, and it was worth every second to accomplish the goal of 'we hit every color possible'. I cannot describe it.
merek: That was a beautiful set of lilies, Pasc. Congrats on that.
Pascalito:Thanks merek.
LuluDivine: A close second would be the final festivals in t5, and watching hundreds of people get zapped by lighting as a result of a Festival that I helped put together. That was a different kind of euphoria! So hard to decide!
Afrah: Oh, wait, favorite accomplishment? I thought you asked what our favorite test was.
Afrah: Steel: Oh man. That's a tough question. I love The Test of Khefre's Children. But, I also love the fireworks shows -- so awesome. I guess the whole art track is pretty exciting to me (even though I'm historically a Sage of Harmony, for some odd reason).
Afrah: My favorite accomplishment, I think, was getting the aqueduct done on Bastet, even though we were ridiculously underpopulated. Though, a close second would be when Snoerr and I built a pyramid by ourselves, one insane day.
DustiTwister: In the Gameing world, People come and People go. Real life throws curveballs. I've seen some of you just disappear. No goodbye, no warning, no other from your circle of friends/family come in and tell us what's happend or even the fact somethings come up and your unable to be here. Holding the DP position, I left in T4, but I announced I was leaving so that people knew. Had a chance to give me their 2 cents as I left. Would you think that would be the case if you were elected, or would you just disappear as it's happend in the past?
Kuu: I'd probably mention it to people so that word got around but I don't think I'd do like an Egypt-wide tour advertising it or anything.
merek: If I were elected DP, I would give notice if possible, if I planned on leaving. I opted for the "full-tale" option, so I do plan to stay around.
Pascalito:All depends on the reason. If possible, I'd certainly let people know.
Kuu: Oh, and I'm reminded by friends that I've been in #atitd on IRC for like 14 years, so I mean, even when I'm not in Egypt, I'm always reachable :)
toothless: i would definitly not, i have so many friend here specially peacefunless who is my partner in crime here for a long time. just leaving without a word on anything short of an accident would be quite mean to everyone who consider me a friend and that i consider friend .
Afrah: I admit, I have disappeared before, but I was one of the last people to give up on Bastet, I think. There were very few people left to say goodbye to, at that point. I think if I were DP, and left, I'd make sure to let the other DPs know, and give them and some other trusted souls my contact info, if they needed me for something urgently.
LuluDivine: I cannot imagine that I'd simply disappear. I know I did disappear for a time in t4, when I was going through some incredibly difficult personal things, but I did eventually come back. At this point, I know too many people in this game in RL to ever be 'unfindable', even if I were to be hit by a bus. I prepaid the whole Tale before T7 started, so I intend to get my money's worth, and squeeze this place for every last drop. ;)
Kuu: Dreasimy wants me to say that I'm an asshat on IRC. I don't really agree with that evaluation, but I respect her opinion.
Tempos:I plan to play the full telling. If I had to leave for some reason, I would let Egypt know first. In an emergency, Jeslyn (my mother) would be able to let Egypt know.
tehm: Are DPs responsible for ensuring the quality of the game- particularly beyond the player base? For example, would you have a role in pushing for improvements in events or pushing for more story events?
LuluDivine: I think too many people have my facebook link for me to ever get away with just ghosting out, anyway. :p
toothless: i dont think dp have that kind of power. but usualy are invested into the game and get to hear a lot of thing. but i do not think it has anything to do with the role itself.
Pascalito:I've had some influence on the happenings in game, but I don't see any link to DP to be able to do that or have any more influence with the game directors.
merek: Regarding events: several people have mentioned wanting to have events more often. We have some really creative players and I would work with Pluribus to find ways of having more player-created events. The dev resources are limited, and we probably don't want Apophis creating events for us... right? So how about we have players or groups of players coming up with ideas for stories, contests, etc.
LuluDivine: I think that a DP's primary role is be an adjudicator and mediator for disputes and serious player conflicts, and most important elements of that role have far more to do with exploring the questions of the limitations of authority power and self-governance than with the game as a game. Despite that, I personally intend to be involved in the dialogue on where ATITD should be headed (story, events, tests, features, etc), whether or not I'm DP. Don't think you can shut me up that easily! :p
Kuu: Not really? That's not to say I wouldn't participate in that stuff but I think the emphasis on DPs being Leaders in the broad sense is not really necessary. Look at all the leaders we have organizing things, like Augir is organizing this debate right now. It's appreciated and he doesn't need any bans to do it (though he might want a few ;)
Afrah: tehm: I wouldn't say that the DPs are *responsible* for ensuring the quality of the game, per se. Quality is the provider's obligation. That said, the DP is in a position where he/she has a louder voice, and as a fellow player, has a vested interest in seeing that the players have a quality experience. Using that louder voice to say some things that might make the game a better place is certainly a benefit.
Tempos: I don't think this should be expected of a DP, but would be great. I think everyone tries to add positively to the game, but some people do it in different ways. I expect everyone in this final would be the type to go above an beyond what is expected of a DP.
Augir: That was last question for this debate, please post your final remarks
Pascalito:Thanks all for your long attention span, wishing you lots of fun with little drama. Your vote will in the first place be a vote for democracy!
toothless: Final remark. i would like to thank augir for his time and effort into organizing this, everyone for taking your time and watching this. and all the other participant for showing up and keeping this clean. also if anyone has further question for me i am always open to chat. or just come over to 7L and have fun with us, we are a crazy bunch :)
merek: Also, many thanks to Augir for modding this debate and to my fellow candidates. Good luck everyone!
merek: As an "average Joe" who loves the game, I hope you'll consider me for DP. I'll still continue to do the things I love to do, helping people, collaborating on research, and helping find solutions to problems regardless. But I think as DP I'll be able to do it more successfully. Let's work together to make ATITD a better game, and Egypt a place we all love to come back to. I would greatly appreciate your vote, but I also urge you to ask questions and to vote for the candidate that you think is best for the role.
Kuu: It's been a great time and I hope I've gotten across what my opinions on DP are. I think the bans generally shouldn't be used and the DP should do whatever they can to facilitate the resolution of any conflicts that are brought to them. I think it's much more important to have a DP that you trust to be levelheaded and responsible than one who is trying to be a Super-Leader. You can trust that I will be responsible with the bans and receptive to all citizens in Egypt when they have issues.
Kuu: Thanks for your time, Egypt. I hope you've gotten to know us all better and feel that you have the information you need to make an informed decision.
LuluDivine: I've enjoyed chatting with everyone today, and I think there were some really interesting questions posed. This is a slate full of accomplished candidates, each with a great deal to contribute. I welcome discussions on any of the issues raised tonight at any time, and hope that we can continue the dialogue in other, less formal venues. If there are any questions that did not get asked (or answered), please feel more than welcome to hit me up in a public channel, or in a private chat. As for the DP election, I am proud of the contributions that I have already made over the last few tales to the role of DP, and I hope to continue to make more of the same contributions this tale.
Afrah: Thank you all for giving the time to listen to all of us! I know that it was long, and wordy, but you've given us some great questions, and I really do appreciate that. If you have more questions for me (or if you'd like to see my lovely field of woodplanes, send a chat). I'd like to thank my DP panels for preparing me for this debate! A lively DP panel is a good DP panel. Also, I would like to give Kuu my personal Funniest DP Candidate award.
LuluDivine: Thanks to Augir, for the organizational wizardry, and to all the other candidates for your time and dialogue!
Kuu: Thanks Afrah :)
Tempos: I am humbled to be up against such a great range of individuals. I think whoever Egypt elects will do the job wonderfully. I realize I have not been a DP in a past telling, but I feel I would do Egypt proud. I hope you are willing to consider those of us who have not been a DP previously as a serious option, as I believe we have a lot to offer and could help strengthen an already amazing community.
Augir: Great Debate, thanks to Candidates and everbody reading. Debate is recorded in the logs on the WIKI
Augir: http://services.atitd.org/log.php
